US Israel-Palestine policy


Clanrickard

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For Heaven's sake my dear Ashkenazi supremacist Zionists back in the 1950s carried out thousands of gruesomely sadistic medical experiments on mainly Yemenite children with the full knowledge of David Ben Gurion- and you honestly find it hard to believe that they would carry out less gruesome medical experiments on Palestinian children?

Also "Arab Israelis" live in constant fear of the Shin Bet, they can be imprisoned very easily at the drop of a hat with very little evidence, they as a supposed "minority" actually have it among the toughest of all groups in the Levant.
 

parentheses

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I see little Ilhan continues to defy those who want to bully her into silence.
 

Golah veNekhar

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This Hannah Arendt who was one of the leading figures of German Zionism before realizing where it was headed:

"Without the power and resources of American Jewry, above all, the catastrophe in Europe would have been a deadly blow to Palestine Jewry, politically as well as economically. If a Jewish commonwealth is obtained in the near future–with or without partition–it will be due to the political influence of American Jews. This would not need to affect their status of American citizenship if their “homeland,” or “mother country,” were a politically autonomous entity in a normal sense, or if their help were likely to be only temporary. But if the Jewish commonwealth is proclaimed against the will of the Arabs and without the support of the Mediterranean peoples, not only financial help but political support will be necessary for a long time to come. And that may turn out to be very troublesome indeed for Jews in this country, who after all have no power to direct the political destinies of the Near East. It may eventually be far more of a responsibility than today they imagine or tomorrow can make good.....

...... [T]he Zionists, if they continue to ignore the Mediterranean people and watch out only for the big faraway powers, will appear only as their tools, the agents of foreign and hostile interests. Jews who know their own history should be aware that such a state of affairs will inevitably lead to a new wave of Jew-hatred; the antisemitism of tomorrow will assert that Jews not only profiteered from the presence of foreign big powers in that region but had actually plotted it and hence are guilty of the consequences…

[T]he Zionists ended by making the Jewish national emancipation entirely dependent upon the material interests of another nation.

The actual result was a return of the new movement to the traditional methods of shtadlonus [court Jews], which the Zionists once had so bitterly despised and violently denounced. Now Zionists too knew no better place politically than the lobbies of the powerful, and no sounder basis for agreements than their good services as agents of foreign interests…

Only folly could dictate a policy which trusts a distant imperial power for protection, while alienating the goodwill of neighbors."
 

roc_

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... Furthermore liberal Jews are increasingly critical of Israels policies, as the Deborah Lipstadt rrmarks illustrate.
They don't illustrate any such thing. Lipstadt's commentary is always nuanced. She is right to criticise some of the Netanyahu government's more potentially self-destructive policies, as many people who support the majority Jewish perspective do, including myself. But at the same time she recognises the real-politik and exigencies facing those presently in government and their need to act. She also regularly argues that “Zionist” is often used as a euphemism for “Jew”, and points out that Stalin used exactly the same formulation 70 years ago (as per Wesleyan's post made earlier this morning). She has carefully documented Jeremy Corbyn defending and supporting people who have made repellently anti-Semitic statements. She lambasted on many occasions Mary Robinson's partner in crime ex-President Jimmy Carter for omitting the years 1939–1947 from the chronology in his book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid". And more. But always the selectivity with you. Again, Lipstadt's commentary is nuanced, and intelligent, and as honest as she can personally be, which apparently is anathema to the likes of you. You only want the out of context fragments of statements which condemn the vast majority of Jews.
 

owedtojoy

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Major blow up in the Democratic party over a leadership plan to confront Rep. Omar over her criticism of Israels influence in US politics. The Congressional Black Caucus unhappy with Pelosi and the lobbys plan

House Democrats erupt in protests over indirect sanction of Rep. Omar for alleged anti-Semitism - The Washington Post
This is good .... it signals that the facile assumption of equating US interests with Israel's no longer applies.

Netanyahu very successfully hitched Israel to the Republican Party, and that has worked out brilliantly in the shorter term. But it has also alienated whole swathes of Americans, especially young Americans.

As the Netanyahu era draws to a close, and he can only go on a few more years at best, there is a gnawing uncertainty about what are America's real interests in the Middle East.
 

owedtojoy

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Bernie Sanders criticises attacks on Ilhan Omar, and calls for "even handed" Middle East policy.

Bernie Sanders, Kamala Harris defend Ilhan Omar amid controversy over Israel comments - CNNPolitics
Generally, all 2020 Democratic contenders are supporting Omar. It is a sign that the long-term trends in the Democratic Party may not bode well for Israel. Israel may pay a price for the way Netanyahu dumped a bipartisan approach to American politics in favour of supporting a single party only.
 

Dame_Enda

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Wow. Tom Friedman of the NY Times - usually very pro Israel - strongly criticising AIPAC right now - saying it hss become "destructive" to a two state solution by supporting settlements in the heart of the West Bank, and for helping Netanyahu criticise Obama.
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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Both parties supporting a repressive anti BDS law in Florida.
I personally don't support BDS, but I do have concerns about the use of government to do what's attempted here on First Amendment grounds such as the rights to free speech, association, and protest, e.g.,

Workman mentioned he was the sponsor for this legislation and Rader and Moskowitz were the prime co-sponsors. Workman mentioned that as Jewish Americans, Rader and Moskowitz were very sincere about their defense of Israel.

When asked how he feels this bill will mean for Florida, Workman responded: "I'm hoping that we don't discover that we have a lot of companies in this state that think boycotting, divesting or sanctioning Israel is a good idea but on the other side of that same coin it sends a very clear message in my opinion, our most significant ally of where we stand and that is that we stand with Israel."
. . .
"There is anti-boycott legislation in Illinois that says Illinois will not invest in companies that engage in bigoted boycotts. There's legislation in South Carolina that says South Carolina will not buy from entities that engage in bigoted boycotts," Shapiro said. "Florida is the first state to say it is not going to invest or buy from these bigoted companies, so Florida set a new standard for the nation and I feel confident others will follow."
Florida legislature passes anti-BDS bill

It's fair game and common for people to oppose and protest certain activities by Israelis in good faith as there are with the Palestinians, especially those of each side that wish to purge/subjugate the other along tribal grounds.

On the bolded, I'd add that these Jewish lawmakers are only adding fuel to the general historical canard that Jews are a treacherous domestic clique within nations and an international conspiracy within nations as a backfire for which all the innocent--which is easily most--do not engage.

Whilst I'm certain there are bigots within BDS supporters, it's a mischievous political agenda-oriented 'race card' fallacy argument to label the entire movement as being antisemitic. Israelis, like Palestinians, are not above reproach and critique and nobody IMO could credibly argue that one side or the other is blameless in the conflict.
 
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O'Sullivan Bere

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To be expected, Trump and his propaganda outlet 'Trump TV' (FOX News) are instigating further divisive toxicity amongst the general public along tribal lines on the day a Trump praising white supremacist massacred Muslims in New Zealand.

"The ‘Jexodus’ movement encourages Jewish people to leave the Democrat Party. Total disrespect! Republicans are waiting with open arms. Remember Jerusalem (U.S. Embassy) and the horrible Iran Nuclear Deal! @OANN @foxandfriends"

The organization, described by some media sources as the brainchild of Trump advisor and Republican Party lobbyist Jeff Ballabon, chose[5] Pipko as its national spokesperson.[3]Ballabon was instrumental in formulating the RNC's 2016 platform on Israel, working to remove all references to "a two state solution" and refusing to acknowledge Israel's occupation of the West Bank and the Golan Heights as being illegal under international law. Ballabon referred to Minnesota Congresswomen Ilhan Omar as filth, accusing her of anti-semitism after she publicized her criticisms of AIPAC and Isreali government policy concerning the illegal occupation of the West Bank and the Golan Height. It was pointed out by political commentators that Ballabon had previously refused to describe the neo-nazi and white nationalist groups in Charlottesville as anti-semitic. Graffiti calling for Congresswomen Omar to be assassinated was found on a gas station in Minneapolis. [6]
Pipko is married to current Trump staffer Darren Centinello and the couple was married at Trump's Florida resort Mar-a-Lago, with the wedding invitations being printed on red hats stating "Make Marriage Great Again". Pipko has suggested that she may join her husband to work for the Trump 2020 reelection campaign, stating, "I’m already hoping to take part in the reelection in some capacity." Centinello has received over $30,000 in disbursement payments from the Trump campaign according to the Federal Campaign Commission.[7] On 27 October 2017, Pipko and her husband met with Trump at the White House.[8]
Jexodus has been described as “far right” by the Israeli media[9] and as "fringe" by American media.[10] Media sources in both Israel and the United States have pointed out that Jewish support for the Democratic Party has actually increased since Trump took office and that there is no evidence that Jewish voters are leaving the Democratic Party en masse to join the Republican Party. The domain name for Jexodus.org was created and registered on November 5, 2018.[11]
Jexodus - Wikipedia
Jeff Ballabon - Wikipedia
Elizabeth Pipko - Wikipedia

Pipko...quelle surprise...is also a connected Russian fluent speaking daughter of Russian immigrants.

Pipko also sought out and became an Israeli citizen at age 18 with a primacy sentiment towards Israel so, in her case, national allegiance concerns expressly exist vis-a-vis her close role with the White House.

She also revealed that she applied for Israeli citizenship when she turned 18. “The goal is to compete by next year to make the 2018 Winter Olympics. I’m trying to represent Israel,” she said. In 2013, she posted on Instagram that she had become an Israeli citizen. “A year ago today I became an Israeli citizen which will forever be my proudest accomplishment,” she wrote. The Forward reached out to Pipko’s coaches for information about whether Pipko seriously pursued Olympic trials.
Read more: Who Is Elizabeth Pipko, Trump’s 23-Year-Old Jewish Friend?

Ballabon's intense activities, like Sheldon Adelson's who frankly admitted he regrets having worn a US military uniform rather than an Israeli one and wants his son to be a sniper in the IDF, to utilise the GOP to push Israeli right wing agendas implies it.

The chutzpah, pardon the pun, is that these types are in fact activists seeking to harness US foreign policy to serve controversial foreign Israeli right wing agendas, but they try to mask that agenda by crying foul citing the old canard. The abuse and fallout of being the exception to the canard and hiding their agenda behind it only serves to reinforce it at everyone else's expense in the Jewish diaspora.

On top of that, under Trump openly but building that pathway for him, the GOP has become 'for sale' to servicing all sorts of foreign interests from Putin, Saudi Arabia, the Israeli right wing, etc, that are not in the US's best interests or that of its traditional allies and friends.
 
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Dame_Enda

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Unacceptable. Trump says he will recognise Israeli sovereignty over the occupied Golan Heights, which are part of Syria.

 

belcoo666

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Unacceptable. Trump says he will recognise Israeli sovereignty over the occupied Golan Heights, which are part of Syria.

I wonder had he cleared that with Putin or did someone leave him unattended again ?
 

Dame_Enda

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Disgraceful that House Dem leadership pushing a motion condemning global boycotts of Israel. Will expose division in the party also. They are doing this ahead of the AIPAC conference, which disgracefully is inviting a settler leader to speak. Someone is getting their money's worth anyway. Fair play to Bernie Sanders for deciding not to attend the AIPAC conference.

 

owedtojoy

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Disgraceful that House Dem leadership pushing a motion condemning global boycotts of Israel. Will expose division in the party also. They are doing this ahead of the AIPAC conference, which disgracefully is inviting a settler leader to speak. Someone is getting their money's worth anyway. Fair play to Bernie Sanders for deciding not to attend the AIPAC conference.

Democrats are the bad guys, even they key members (Sanders, Warren, Harris) have passed on AIPAC. Nor is it clear if the motion will ever get a vote in the House.


Meanwhile, Trump is approving another Israeli violation of international law.


Trump was supposed to be offering "the deal of the century" to Palestinians (that is what he calls it) after giving Netanyahu everything he asks for. This is another effort to get Natanyahu's ass back into office, when he is in danger of both losing the election and going to jail.
 

Ardillaun

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To be fair, Irish immigrants to America and their progeny were frequently accused of being a 'fifth column' going back the arrival of the United Irishmen exiles, especially if they engaged themselves in the political affairs of Ireland and/or sought US involvement in them, e.g.,

"We have no room in any healthy American community for a German-American vote or an Irish-American vote, and it is contemptible demagogy to put planks into any party platform with the purpose of catching such a vote. We have no room for any people who do not act and vote simply as Americans, and as nothing else." President Theodore 'Teddy' Roosevelt, April 1894.

Teddy was an especially fierce and avowed opponent and critic of O'Donovan Rossa during his time in the US and the Fenian movement in the US, the Fenians of which actually invaded Canada following the US Civil War in an effort to achieve Irish independence.
What about Americans who lobbied on Britain’s behalf? Right up to those who supported Churchill they were barely considered disloyal at all by the American establishment. The Brits were enraged when Ted Kennedy and Co. finally levelled the playing field a little bit on Northern Ireland.


IMO, Omar takes things too far but has said some things in whole or in part that need to be said. Israel-Palestine is a difficult topic, but it shouldn't be shut down by demagogic accusations of being either antisemitic or anti-Muslim or tolerating genuine acts of it, and whatever the aims, any decisions should be made in what's in the best national interests--not another's--with all due considerations for doing what's also ethical and just where it can and should be done.
Omar and Tlaib would be well advised to avoid this topic like the plague for the rest of their careers and leave it to the likes of Bernie Sanders to raise. In this era of identity politics the ethno-cultural background of a speaker matters a lot.

The thing is that some Israeli lobbying these days is at a different level from what one sees from, say, European allies. Israel is one of the countries mentioned (along with the likes of Qatar and UAE) that targeted Kushner, and it’s hard to find a lobbyist for Britain or Germany that resembles AIPAC. Given Trump’s legal and electoral vulnerabilities, I anticipate more concessions to Netanyahu, another corrupt demagogue. At least some of the Dems are showing a hint of backbone:

 
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O'Sullivan Bere

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What about Americans who lobbied on Britain’s behalf? Right up to those who supported Churchill they were barely considered disloyal at all by the American establishment. The Brits were enraged when Ted Kennedy and Co. finally levelled the playing field a little bit on Northern Ireland.

Omar and Tlaib would be well advised to avoid this topic like the plague for the rest of their careers and leave it to the likes of Bernie Sanders to raise. In this era of identity politics the ethno-cultural background of a speaker matters a lot.

The thing is that some Israeli lobbying these days is at a different level from what one sees from, say, European allies. Israel is one of the countries mentioned (along with the likes of Qatar and UAE) that targeted Kushner, and it’s hard to find a lobbyist for Britain or Germany that resembles AIPAC. Given Trump’s legal and electoral vulnerabilities, I anticipate more concessions to Netanyahu, another corrupt demagogue. At least some of the Dems are showing a hint of backbone:

That's good discussion material. Where precisely the lines are crossed isn't easily delineated but none the less like the difference between porn and artistic nudity...you know it when you see it. A key aspect is asking whether or not what's being done on behalf of a foreign interest is compatible with the ultimate national self-interests of the host nation and/or justifiable from a human rights perspective given no regime has a right to violate, enable or ignore the violation of fundamental individual human rights anywhere.

To me, something like the Fenian invasion of Canada by Irish diaspora within the US crossed that line. It was done to serve Irish nationalism--a foreign interest--at the clear expense of the US's national security interests. The US domestic Fenians had attacked its neighbour. Back then, there had also been a long testy and wary relationship between the US and Canada dating from exiled American Revolution loyalists that developed Canada, the War of 1812, 'Canadian republican' domestic strife that had received empathetic US citizen support, the 1800s border and maritime rights disputes, etc. Things were finally settling down into the start of what evolved into the close US-Canada relationship that exists today when the Fenians pulled that move.

Canada had also become substantively self-governing and 'independent' in 1867 vis-a-vis the UK with a consensual relationship. It therefore wasn't a fair thing to do for the Fenians to invade Canada to compel Irish independence from the UK because they had no right to put Irish human rights above and at the expense of Canadian ones, especially as Canadians were functionally enough a 'third party' to the dispute.

On the other hand, up until establishment of the Irish Free State, Irish diaspora trying to influence US foreign policy to support Irish home rulers and/or nationalists would have been legitimate because it dealt with a people involuntarily subjugated and oppressed by an empire superpower. The US as a Western democratic republic held out that its core values rejected that behaviour, that the US has a key national interest in providing global leadership on that issue, etc. As for supporting armed struggle for independence, those same issues were involved.

As for Ted Kennedy&Co later seeking better fairness in NI, that also triggered those human rights leadership concerns, but note carefully that supporting armed struggle there was off the table given the majority of the people of NI preferred being part of the UK by consent. Popular sovereignty and social fairness were core aspects regarding the key US involvement in the GFA, the agreement of which also served the US's national self-interests by upholding human rights concerns within NI and improving its relations with all the involved parties.

IMO, it's fair game for Omar and Tlaib to address this topic as much as Jewish Americans like Bernie Sanders or 'third party' ethnic Americans. Muslim Americans are not second class citizens by law and should tolerate being placed so in social custom, and all that's done by asking Muslim Americans to take a backseat in the topic is to indulge and inculcate negative social prejudices amongst fellow Americans. Muslim Americans also bring necessary perspective to the topic along with Jewish ones for determining what's actually in the US's best national interest and what's best for upholding human rights concerns.
 
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