USSR Victory Day

MichaelR

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Today, May 9, is the official Victory Day for the USSR, still celebrated in Russia and some other post-Soviet states.

The divergence of dates is partially a matter of timezone, partially a result of the German surrender being signed a second time as the first time happened without top Soviet officials present. But the divergence of views is bigger.

The "BBC" version would have the British and Americans as main movers in the fight against Hitler. While reluctantly acknowledging Soviet participation, it seeks to minimize its impact and to smear the honour of Soviet soldiers. The reality is extremely different.

It were the Soviets who paid the heavy price in blood for defeating Hitler. Soviet losses are estimated at 27 million. Of this number, only 12 million were soldiers. The rest were civilians, killed by German Nazis and their allies either directly, on occupied territories, or indirectly, like those trapped in Leningrad under a ruthless siege (over 600,000 civilians dies of hunger).

The world owes much of the defeat of Hitler to the peoples of the (then-existing) Soviet Union. Not just Russians, of course.

 


GDPR

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It should also be remembered that it was Russian sweat, blood, fire and steel that saved Europe from the proto-Hitler Napoleon. Twice Russia has saved European Civilization and if she does a third time it would not surprise me in the least.
 

Crazy horse 6

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Thank you Russia. An amazing country and people that saved Europe from the evil of the Nazi's.
 

peader odonnell

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Belorus celebrates it ,they have two days off ,my friends there are very pruod that their antecedents served in the Red Army.
 

Dimples 77

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Today, May 9, is the official Victory Day for the USSR, still celebrated in Russia and some other post-Soviet states.

The divergence of dates is partially a matter of timezone, partially a result of the German surrender being signed a second time as the first time happened without top Soviet officials present. But the divergence of views is bigger.

The "BBC" version would have the British and Americans as main movers in the fight against Hitler. While reluctantly acknowledging Soviet participation, it seeks to minimize its impact and to smear the honour of Soviet soldiers. The reality is extremely different.

It were the Soviets who paid the heavy price in blood for defeating Hitler. Soviet losses are estimated at 27 million. Of this number, only 12 million were soldiers. The rest were civilians, killed by German Nazis and their allies either directly, on occupied territories, or indirectly, like those trapped in Leningrad under a ruthless siege (over 600,000 civilians dies of hunger).

The world owes much of the defeat of Hitler to the peoples of the (then-existing) Soviet Union. Not just Russians, of course.



Were it now?

I always find it funny that at the START of WW2 the Soviets directly collaborated with the Nazis in invading and occupying Poland. They reached a deal with the Nazis - the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

The Soviets then collaborated with the Nazis for almost 2 years before the Nazis invaded Soviet territory. During that period they engaged in raw materials and military trade witgh the Nazis.

Of course June 1941 when the Soviets pretended that "the war" started for them. The truth is that they helped Hitler consolidate his position, and brought a Nazi invasion upon themselves.
 

MichaelR

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Belorus celebrates it ,they have two days off ,my friends there are very pruod that their antecedents served in the Red Army.
Yes indeed, there were many, very many heroes in Belarus. It was occupied entirely, but many people did not give up, they became Partizans (guerillas) in the vast forests and ran underground resistance in cities too. The Germans could never feel quiet there in Belarus, and their communications were constantly disrupted.

There were of course some collaborationists everywhere, too. It is sad that some alleged democrats in Belarus tend to see these collaborationists as "more Belarussian" and glorify them because they were against "Russia". They are few and far between, though. The same kind of glorification exists in Russia but is even more marginalized.
 

Dimples 77

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It should also be remembered that it was Russian sweat, blood, fire and steel that saved Europe from the proto-Hitler Napoleon. Twice Russia has saved European Civilization and if she does a third time it would not surprise me in the least.
Did the Russians help Napoleon, in the way that the Soviets helped Hitler at the start of WW2?
 

Dimples 77

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Thank you Russia. An amazing country and people that saved Europe from the evil of the Nazi's.
Aren't you forgetting the bit about them collaborating with the Nazis at the start of WW2?

They both invaded and occupied parts of Poland.
 

GDPR

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Were it now?

I always find it funny that at the START of WW2 the Soviets directly collaborated with the Nazis in invading and occupying Poland. They reached a deal with the Nazis - the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

The Soviets then collaborated with the Nazis for almost 2 years before the Nazis invaded Soviet territory. During that period they engaged in raw materials and military trade witgh the Nazis.

Of course June 1941 when the Soviets pretended that "the war" started for them. The truth is that they helped Hitler consolidate his position, and brought a Nazi invasion upon themselves.
Pragmatism and buying time might offend our idealists on this forum but they are often a necessary part of politics. Poland was ruled by a particularly nasty regime at the time anyway and many Poles welcomed the Red Army.
 

Dimples 77

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Yes indeed, there were many, very many heroes in Belarus. It was occupied entirely, but many people did not give up, they became Partizans (guerillas) in the vast forests and ran underground resistance in cities too. The Germans could never feel quiet there in Belarus, and their communications were constantly disrupted.

There were of course some collaborationists everywhere, too. It is sad that some alleged democrats in Belarus tend to see these collaborationists as "more Belarussian" and glorify them because they were against "Russia". They are few and far between, though. The same kind of glorification exists in Russia but is even more marginalized.

Do all Russians see themselves as "collaborationists" with the Nazis in the early part of the war?

Or do they forget that bit?
 

GDPR

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Do all Russians see themselves as "collaborationists" with the Nazis in the early part of the war?

Or do they forget that bit?
Dimples77 how do you defend the disgraceful attitudes and actions of the Ulster Unionist Party and Orange Order during World War II in which they stabbed the United Kingdom in the back in one of her most perilous hours?
 

Catalpast

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Yes indeed, there were many, very many heroes in Belarus. It was occupied entirely, but many people did not give up, they became Partizans (guerillas) in the vast forests and ran underground resistance in cities too. The Germans could never feel quiet there in Belarus, and their communications were constantly disrupted.

There were of course some collaborationists everywhere, too. It is sad that some alleged democrats in Belarus tend to see these collaborationists as "more Belarussian" and glorify them because they were against "Russia". They are few and far between, though. The same kind of glorification exists in Russia but is even more marginalized.
Michael - should you ever be in Berlin a visit to the German-Russian Museum there is well worth it:

Deutsch-Russisches Museum Berlin-Karlshorst | Start

You can actually stand in the room (unchanged) where the General Keitel signed the surrender documents

IIRC it was 8 May Berlin Time but 9 May Moscow Time....?

Also a visit to Potsdam outside Berlin where Churchill Truman and Stalin met in June 1945 to decide the future of Post War Germany is also a good one
 

Dimples 77

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Pragmatism and buying time might offend our idealists on this forum but they are often a necessary part of politics. Poland was ruled by a particularly regime at the time anyway and many Poles welcomed the Red Army.

What was pragmatic about collaborating with the Nazis, about engaging in raw materials and military trade with them?

What was pragmatic about the Soviets getting their behind kicked for months after the Nazis invaded in June 1941? You mentioned the Soviets supposedly "buying time" but is there any evidence that they actually did much during that time? They didn't appear to have been ready for the Nazi invasion when it came, did they?

So what were they doing during those almost 2 years?

Supposed pragmatism and buying time are just lame revisionist excuses. They were happy to collaborate with the Nazis.
 

parentheses

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Yes indeed. God bless the great Red Army.


[video=youtube;lCpk5uuCxJ0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCpk5uuCxJ0[/video]
 

Dimples 77

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Dimples77 how do you defend the disgraceful attitudes and actions of the Ulster Unionist Party and Orange Order during World War II in which they stabbed the United Kingdom in the back in one of her most perilous hours?

Do all Russians see themselves as "collaborationists" with the Nazis in the early part of the war?

Or do they forget that bit?

I'd call that part of Soviet history disgraceful, along with the invasions of Finland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
 

MichaelR

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Do all Russians see themselves as "collaborationists" with the Nazis in the early part of the war?

Or do they forget that bit?
There are differing opinions regarding that part. My view - which I hold since researching it in some detail in the 90s, using wartime publications that I found in the biggest library in Moscow - is that the collaboration was the kind of mistake that was worse than a crime (Talleyrand's formula).

The Soviet Union itself, as a state, eventually paid for this mistake when it disintegrated, as it were the areas annexed in that very period, Eastern Poland (so-called "Western Ukraine") and the Baltics, that drove the disintegration.

Its people are still paying, as "Westerk Ukraine", which should have been under Polish jurisdiction all along, drove the present troubles in Ukraine.
 

GDPR

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Supposed pragmatism and buying time are just lame revisionist excuses. They were happy to collaborate with the Nazis.
Yeah right, Ernst Junger aggressively trolled the Hitlerite regime by attending functions in the Soviet Embassy (he was protected by being the most decorated soldier of WWI in the German Army), they knew full well what the Hitlerities planned, you have never obviously played Poker.
 

parentheses

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Do all Russians see themselves as "collaborationists" with the Nazis in the early part of the war?

Or do they forget that bit?

I'd call that part of Soviet history disgraceful, along with the invasions of Finland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

Your trolling of this thread is distasteful and disrespectful on the day that's in it.
 

parentheses

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Do you ask for a blessing on their invasions of Finland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia?

Winston Churchill told the Soviet ambassador Maisky he had little complaint about those actions. He was happier to see those nations under the USSR than the Nazis
 


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