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Very low corporate income tax rates were a response to 400,000 (net) Irish emigration in the 1950s. New tax policies needed?

patslatt

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Very low corporate income tax rates were a response to 400,000 (net) Irish emigration in the 1950s. New tax policies needed?

In the debate about low income taxes on multinational manufacturers, it should not be forgotten that those low taxes were an essential part of late 1950s economic reforms designed to stem the massive emigration of the 1950s which was bleeding the country dry. This emigration occured on a population base of three millions and was heavily concentrated among the young, including a majority of children at the time.

If Ireland gives in to EU government pressures to raise corporate tax rates on multinationals, some important tax changes would be needed to accelerate development of indigeneous Irish businesses in advanced technologies. Irish capital gains tax rates of 33% are very uncompetitive internationally and need to be cut to the low 20s.

In the case of business startups, 33% is way out of line with an "Entrepreneurs'" 10% capital gains rate next door in Northern Ireland and Britain. Software and social media startups often sell out to multinationals after a few years development, a major incentive to incorporate in the UK.
 


silverharp

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it would need to be more than tax, you would need to deregulate the fk out of the economy so that opening or locating an international business is a good alternative to somewhere in Britain France or Germany.
Ireland can only really sell itself as a back office economy. Its not an ideas creating country and there is no particular reason for "capital and wealth" to settle here because the beer is good
 

Burnout

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I have a life.
Are we just a bunch of cute hoors....caught out.

We have an illegal unproven track record of milking the system. Our own TD guys get expenses for breathing as they go to work, get paid for being a few miles away from the office, and this is the way the smallest of the cute hoors get to have a lavish lifestyle. So bigger cute hoors like apple will exploit every legal loophole to keep the money from the tax payer.

Yes they give great employment. But if i tried to not pay tax as a small wannabe company what do you think would happen....oh sorry if I am too small to have a retainer with a large tax advisor company...I'm just not in the game.

Different life being in the game. Our gov do not do small (micro) business.
 
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Spanner Island

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In the debate about low income taxes on multinational manufacturers, it should not be forgotten that those low taxes were an essential part of late 1950s economic reforms designed to stem the massive emigration of the 1950s which was bleeding the country dry. This emigration occured on a population base of three millions and was heavily concentrated among the young, including a majority of children at the time.

If Ireland gives in to EU government pressures to raise corporate tax rates on multinationals, some important tax changes would be needed to accelerate development of indigeneous Irish businesses in advanced technologies. Irish capital gains tax rates of 33% are very uncompetitive internationally and need to be cut to the low 20s.

In the case of business startups, 33% is way out of line with an "Entrepreneurs'" 10% capital gains rate next door in Northern Ireland and Britain. Software and social media startups often sell out to multinationals after a few years development, a major incentive to incorporate in the UK.
The point is pat we've been told for decades that our 12.5% rate is very competitive and a great attraction... whereas in recent years we've discovered the effective tax rate is usually far below this rate... with MNCs paying rates in the low single digits...

If MNCs wish to launder profits made elsewhere through Ireland in order to avail of our 12.5% tax rate and it's legal and transparent (albeit an unfair scam imo)... then fair enough although it's a dirty little arrangement imo...

But to have them laundering billions through here on which they're effectively paying no tax at all is just another example of shoddy Ireland and the cute hoor bullsh!t way we do things here...

I'm done listening to any of the 'establishment' gobsh!tes and the horsesh!t they spew...

They're just smart arse tacky chancers pretending to be something they're not.
 
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GDPR

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it has nothing to do with Ireland's low corporate tax rate.

If Apple had just paid the standard 12.5% tax in Ireland, there would be no problem.

Instead, the commission says Ireland gave Apple "selective tax treatment" starting in 1991, with the first of two tax rulings. In effect, Ireland signed off on a plan in which Apple would move money to a stateless "head office" with no meaningful activities and only pay tax on a small percentage of those profits in Ireland - and nowhere else.

Not levying taxes that everyone else pays amounts to state aid for the company benefiting.
 

Civic_critic2

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In the debate about low income taxes on multinational manufacturers, it should not be forgotten that those low taxes were an essential part of late 1950s economic reforms designed to stem the massive emigration of the 1950s which was bleeding the country dry.
That's the excuse they gave to incorporate us into the American system post-war. If they were serious about employment they would have taken control of the currency rather than leave it in the hands of a fifth column operating to quite different agendas. They didn't.
 

Civic_critic2

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But to have them laundering billions through here on which they're effectively paying no tax at all is just another example of shoddy Ireland and the cute hoor bullsh!t way we do things here...

I'm done listening to any of the 'establishment' gobsh!tes and the horsesh!t they spew...

They're just smart arse tacky chancers pretending to be something they're not.
We have to presume at this point that kickbacks and fees are the operating principle for the Irish establishment here. And maintaining the country in a state of dependency to outside powers. That's what we see so we should make that judgement. There's little for the population at large here, just a few tens of thousand's feathering their nests at the cost of another one or two generations destroyed in terms of their potential. We have seen this over and over again. It's time to move on.
 

cytex

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it has nothing to do with Ireland's low corporate tax rate.

If Apple had just paid the standard 12.5% tax in Ireland, there would be no problem.

Instead, the commission says Ireland gave Apple "selective tax treatment" starting in 1991, with the first of two tax rulings. In effect, Ireland signed off on a plan in which Apple would move money to a stateless "head office" with no meaningful activities and only pay tax on a small percentage of those profits in Ireland - and nowhere else.

Not levying taxes that everyone else pays amounts to state aid for the company benefiting.
Why would they pay 12.5 % when they could pay far less on profits in Luxembourg say ?

Turns out Ireland was telling the truth about company taxes. Unlike nearly everyone else…

or do you actually believe Europe has our best intrests and don't just want to divide the mnc between themselves
 

Round tower

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it has nothing to do with Ireland's low corporate tax rate.

If Apple had just paid the standard 12.5% tax in Ireland, there would be no problem.

Instead, the commission says Ireland gave Apple "selective tax treatment" starting in 1991, with the first of two tax rulings. In effect, Ireland signed off on a plan in which Apple would move money to a stateless "head office" with no meaningful activities and only pay tax on a small percentage of those profits in Ireland - and nowhere else.

Not levying taxes that everyone else pays amounts to state aid for the company benefiting.
In Ire. Apple pay 12.5 CT on the profits they make here, so if say in another EC country they don't pay CT on the profits they make in that country, that is their problem not ours, Apple probably owes that money but they down us that money, So if the EC is so worried about Apple owing this money to other countries, why don't they sue Apple and then ask the other countries to apply to them for the money they are owed. It would seem they make the decision on this but wants Ire. to do the dirty for them.

Another fine mess CH, BA and FF led Gov's has left a FG led Gov. to clean up
 
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wombat

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The 12.5% tax was introduced to replace the practice of allowing companies to pay no tax on exports. There were a lot of incentives given to US companies to locate in Ireland which were resented by the big EU countries - anyone remember the bidding war for the DeLorean car company which eventually located in Belfast. Once it became obvious that membership of the EU meant that special deals for exports would not be allowed, the decision to have a common low business tax was taken.
 

Karloff

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To hear Gannon today and then later Michael O Leary - you would find yourself surprised to think rich tax evading scumbags seem to be the foremost spokespersons on defending Ireland's sovereignty all of a sudden.
 

Spanner Island

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To hear Gannon today and then later Michael O Leary - you would find yourself surprised to think rich tax evading scumbags seem to be the foremost spokespersons on defending Ireland's sovereignty all of a sudden.
Yeah... except at least O'Leary and Ryanair have stayed here and paid taxes all along...

I've no problem with him tbh... he's no DOB that's for feckin' sure.
 

patslatt

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it would need to be more than tax, you would need to deregulate the fk out of the economy so that opening or locating an international business is a good alternative to somewhere in Britain France or Germany.
Ireland can only really sell itself as a back office economy. Its not an ideas creating country and there is no particular reason for "capital and wealth" to settle here because the beer is good
ENTREPRENEURIAL IRELAND?

Indigeneous entrepreneurs can prosper provided confiscatory 33% capital gains taxes are cut while venture capital investment and third level R&D are incentivised and supported by the state. A 33% capital gains tax on the sale of businesses started in the inflationary 70s and 80s could amount to a confiscatory tax on the real capital gain after inflation as high as 80%. Such tax grabs are destructive to entrepreneurship and business confidence.
 

patslatt

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Are we just a bunch of cute hoors....caught out.

We have an illegal unproven track record of milking the system. Our own TD guys get expenses for breathing as they go to work, get paid for being a few miles away from the office, and this is the way the smallest of the cute hoors get to have a lavish lifestyle. So bigger cute hoors like apple will exploit every legal loophole to keep the money from the tax payer.

Yes they give great employment. But if i tried to not pay tax as a small wannabe company what do you think would happen....oh sorry if I am too small to have a retainer with a large tax advisor company...I', just not in the game.

Different life being in the game. Our gov do not do small (micro) business.
That's the game in most countries except the USA which has a foolishly high nominal corporate tax rate of 34 to 40% and an effective cash tax rate still high at 25% by international standards . Nominal tax rates in the EU look high but effective rates are very low apparently thanks to exemptions available to national champions in many cases.
 
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patslatt

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To hear Gannon today and then later Michael O Leary - you would find yourself surprised to think rich tax evading scumbags seem to be the foremost spokespersons on defending Ireland's sovereignty all of a sudden.
LIBEL
You libel O'Leary with that insult. He could slash his income tax bill by moving from Ireland to the UK, or better still ,like Smurfit,to Monaco.
 

Catalpast

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it has nothing to do with Ireland's low corporate tax rate.

If Apple had just paid the standard 12.5% tax in Ireland, there would be no problem.

Instead, the commission says Ireland gave Apple "selective tax treatment" starting in 1991, with the first of two tax rulings. In effect, Ireland signed off on a plan in which Apple would move money to a stateless "head office" with no meaningful activities and only pay tax on a small percentage of those profits in Ireland - and nowhere else.

Not levying taxes that everyone else pays amounts to state aid for the company benefiting.
Why then did Apple's competitors not lodge a case against them in the Irish Courts

- if they thought that Apple had an unfair advantage over them?
 

patslatt

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The point is pat we've been told for decades that our 12.5% rate is very competitive and a great attraction... whereas in recent years we've discovered the effective tax rate is usually far below this rate... with MNCs paying rates in the low single digits...

If MNCs wish to launder profits made elsewhere through Ireland in order to avail of our 12.5% tax rate and it's legal and transparent (albeit an unfair scam imo)... then fair enough although it's a dirty little arrangement imo...

But to have them laundering billions through here on which they're effectively paying no tax at all is just another example of shoddy Ireland and the cute hoor bullsh!t way we do things here...

I'm done listening to any of the 'establishment' gobsh!tes and the horsesh!t they spew...

They're just smart arse tacky chancers pretending to be something they're not.
WINDFALL BILLIONS
That's the annual tax Ireland collects for giving multinationals the privilege of low tax brass plates for businesses nominally operating here. That's good business for Paddy Taxman.
 

patslatt

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Apr 11, 2007
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it has nothing to do with Ireland's low corporate tax rate.

If Apple had just paid the standard 12.5% tax in Ireland, there would be no problem.

Instead, the commission says Ireland gave Apple "selective tax treatment" starting in 1991, with the first of two tax rulings. In effect, Ireland signed off on a plan in which Apple would move money to a stateless "head office" with no meaningful activities and only pay tax on a small percentage of those profits in Ireland - and nowhere else.

Not levying taxes that everyone else pays amounts to state aid for the company benefiting.
KNOW IT ALL
So you know more about the complexities of Apple's Irish tax situation than Apple's extremely highly paid legal and accounting advisers? Their tax strategies were undoubtedly legal but the EU Commissioner acting on probably inferior advice to Apple's wants to retroactively move the tax goalposts and override Ireland's tax sovereignty. THere should be "No interference in taxation without representation", to paraphrase the American revolutionary saying.
 

patslatt

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Apr 11, 2007
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We have to presume at this point that kickbacks and fees are the operating principle for the Irish establishment here. And maintaining the country in a state of dependency to outside powers. That's what we see so we should make that judgement. There's little for the population at large here, just a few tens of thousand's feathering their nests at the cost of another one or two generations destroyed in terms of their potential. We have seen this over and over again. It's time to move on.
SUCH PESSIMISM
Boo Hoo!
 

patslatt

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Why would they pay 12.5 % when they could pay far less on profits in Luxembourg say ?

Turns out Ireland was telling the truth about company taxes. Unlike nearly everyone else…

or do you actually believe Europe has our best intrests and don't just want to divide the mnc between themselves
ENVY
Many countries in the EU envy Irish success with multinational investment while they hobble their own economies with red tape,very high employer payroll taxes and rigid job protection.
 
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