VHI v Aviva. What's going on?

EvotingMachine0197

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
8,552
On browsing my online banking today I noticed my VHI direct debit for January was €188. :mad: That's 2256 PA.

Later this evening I was greeted by a flyer from Aviva offering me €415 discount on VHI based on 2Ads+2Kds.

I'm seriously thinking of switching. I get the anecdotal impression that many are switching. Anyone here done so ?

Is the VHI in big trouble ? We had the whole community rating debate last year and BUPA fecked off, I can't blame them for that, yet the VHI customer base is possibly getting vacuumed of it's younger members. By Aviva.

Surely the VHI can't last in this market ? It has the wrong end of the stick.

Wasn't the point of community rating to be that the younger generation pay premium which was ultimately headed for looking after the elder generation ?

If so, I think the concept of CR is smashed.
 


Sync

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Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
28,457
I remember working for 2 companies and being offered "Discounted" VHI programmes. Both times it was at least 25% more expensive than my identical Aviva programme.

They're kept going on the customer base they built up before the competition arrived. As more of their exisiting customers....well die, and the competition continues to make ground, it's hard to see how they'll continue with their current pricing model.
 
B

boo-boo

Health Insurance

Was your policy up for renewal in January? There was increases in govt. levy and monies that have to be paid by hibernian and quinn to vhi in compensation for having an older client base - otherwise known as community rating.

If your premium was not up for renewal - you do not pay any increases in benefits until renewal date. Your contract was for a certain price over the 11 months if by DD. If they charged you extra above the agreed DD - I'd complain and then go to the financial regulator and the Health Insurance Authority. The insurance ombudsman is another avenue for grievance.
 

stonethrower

Active member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
276
On browsing my online banking today I noticed my VHI direct debit for January was €188. :mad: That's 2256 PA.

Later this evening I was greeted by a flyer from Aviva offering me €415 discount on VHI based on 2Ads+2Kds.

I'm seriously thinking of switching. I get the anecdotal impression that many are switching. Anyone here done so ?

Is the VHI in big trouble ? We had the whole community rating debate last year and BUPA fecked off, I can't blame them for that, yet the VHI customer base is possibly getting vacuumed of it's younger members. By Aviva.

Surely the VHI can't last in this market ? It has the wrong end of the stick.

Wasn't the point of community rating to be that the younger generation pay premium which was ultimately headed for looking after the elder generation ?

If so, I think the concept of CR is smashed.
Firstly check The Health Insurance Authority - Home they have a price calculator where you can compare the 3 companies in the Irish market

Yes VHI lost 120,000 members in 2009. Some gave up health insurance altogether, while others went to Quinn and Aviva. Press Releases, Houses of the Oireachtas

It was actually the risk equalisation scheme that was struck down by the courts. So Harney came up with this levy which is used to offset some of the costs of insuring older people that VHI faces.

However the more the costs go up, the more people will flock to Quinn and Aviva or give up insurance altogether. The older patients and people with health problems will actually stay with VHI, so they keep the costly patients and will lose more of those who subsidise the costly ones.

I understand why we have community rating, as if we had experience rating (people charged on the basis of risk) then PHI for older people would be unaffordable. However the current system does create problems, because it allows people to wait until late in life before they contribute.

I could join VHI/Aviva/Quinn at 25 and not claim until I am 60, but I have made contributions for 35 years.
My next door neighbour might decide to join at 58 and after waiting 12 months can enjoy exactly the same benefits. Proposals were made 10 years ago to increase premia for these late joiners, but nothing has been done to date.
 

hammer

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Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
58,180
I switched last year. I downgraded to Hospital Plan 1 with Aviva. I believe the net cost after tax relief for a family with 3 kids is €1,400 per annum.

Do your research. Get away from VHI as fast as you can.
 

paulp

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Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
7,198
On browsing my online banking today I noticed my VHI direct debit for January was €188. :mad: That's 2256 PA.

What do you get for your 2256 per annum?
What does it give you that you can't get from the public system?
And is it worth 2256 per year?

My understanding (albeit it, quiet limited)

If you get seriously sick, ie. life threatening, you are as well off in public system.
If you get emergency case, eg. appendix, you won't have a private room.
Routine, elective stuff - tonsils, you will have a reduced waiting time, but still have option to go private and pay.

What else?
 

toughbutfair

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Joined
May 28, 2009
Messages
9,807
I don't think it is worth the money. Just save it instead and if you get sick you'll have the cash.
 

Sync

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Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
28,457
The option of the private room and skipping the queue are big selling points to me. In addition due to the amount of travel I do, I like that I'm covered up to about 100k through Aviva for procedures. It's worth it to me as it's not a huge impact on my bottom line, if my pay dropped, it would be one of the elements I'd look to drop though.
 

brughahaha

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
15,379
Im with Aviva but have never had to claim thankfully...... VHI always gave me the impression of being a bloated monopoly that hasn't got used to the concept of competition yet , left a soon as the market opened up , a feeling reinforced by learning of the Pay scales at boardroom level in VHI
 

goosebump

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Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
4,940
I pay €1,800 with VHI for 2 + 2, but I generally get a rebate of about €350 each year for GP, Dentist and Optician visits. You get this under their Day to Day option.

I switched from Aviva to VHI when Aviva announced that they weren't going to pay the levy to the State, pending a legal challenge.

I asked could I keep the levy, and if they lost the challenge, I would pass it on to them.

Guess what they said.

And I support the levy anyway.
 

patslatt

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Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
Firstly check The Health Insurance Authority - Home they have a price calculator where you can compare the 3 companies in the Irish market

Yes VHI lost 120,000 members in 2009. Some gave up health insurance altogether, while others went to Quinn and Aviva. Press Releases, Houses of the Oireachtas

It was actually the risk equalisation scheme that was struck down by the courts. So Harney came up with this levy which is used to offset some of the costs of insuring older people that VHI faces.

However the more the costs go up, the more people will flock to Quinn and Aviva or give up insurance altogether. The older patients and people with health problems will actually stay with VHI, so they keep the costly patients and will lose more of those who subsidise the costly ones.

I understand why we have community rating, as if we had experience rating (people charged on the basis of risk) then PHI for older people would be unaffordable. However the current system does create problems, because it allows people to wait until late in life before they contribute.

I could join VHI/Aviva/Quinn at 25 and not claim until I am 60, but I have made contributions for 35 years.
My next door neighbour might decide to join at 58 and after waiting 12 months can enjoy exactly the same benefits. Proposals were made 10 years ago to increase premia for these late joiners, but nothing has been done to date.
American experience shows that health care costs rise sharply for people entering their late forties and tends to grow slowly after their late fifties.
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
Life saving priority access to hospital and non hospital consultants?

On browsing my online banking today I noticed my VHI direct debit for January was €188. :mad: That's 2256 PA.

What do you get for your 2256 per annum?
What does it give you that you can't get from the public system?
And is it worth 2256 per year?

My understanding (albeit it, quiet limited)

If you get seriously sick, ie. life threatening, you are as well off in public system.
If you get emergency case, eg. appendix, you won't have a private room.
Routine, elective stuff - tonsils, you will have a reduced waiting time, but still have option to go private and pay.

What else?
Life saving priority access to hospital and non hospital consultants?
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
Is VHI just passing costs through with feeble resistance?

Im with Aviva but have never had to claim thankfully...... VHI always gave me the impression of being a bloated monopoly that hasn't got used to the concept of competition yet , left a soon as the market opened up , a feeling reinforced by learning of the Pay scales at boardroom level in VHI
Many insurers are accused of just passing on costs to customers with feeble or no resistance because allegedly they get to keep their profit margin on increasing premiums. This is certainly a valid criticism of monopolistic or oligopolistic insurance markets.

As a former monopoly,VHI deoesn't seem to have shed its past tendencies to pass costs through to its customers. It blames its huge 2008 loss on a big increase in medical procedures.

What has VHI done to question the increase in procedures? Has it got a database that shows the variation in numbers of procedures around the country? I doubt it. If it had,it could pinpoint which hospitals and which medical consultants are over treating patients.

Does VHI have staff trained in statistical evidence based medicine who can question the need for surgery? I doubt it.

About half what doctors do for patients has no scientific basis. According to evidence based medicine,a huge proportion of heart surgery is unnecessary and coukl be replaced by drug therapies which have become increasingly effective over the years.

The government should replace VHI's board and top management if VHI isn't effectively challenging the rapid growth of medical procedures.
 

Baron von Biffo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
12,065
On browsing my online banking today I noticed my VHI direct debit for January was €188. :mad: That's 2256 PA.

Later this evening I was greeted by a flyer from Aviva offering me €415 discount on VHI based on 2Ads+2Kds.

I'm seriously thinking of switching. I get the anecdotal impression that many are switching. Anyone here done so ?

Is the VHI in big trouble ? We had the whole community rating debate last year and BUPA fecked off, I can't blame them for that, yet the VHI customer base is possibly getting vacuumed of it's younger members. By Aviva.

Surely the VHI can't last in this market ? It has the wrong end of the stick.

Wasn't the point of community rating to be that the younger generation pay premium which was ultimately headed for looking after the elder generation ?

If so, I think the concept of CR is smashed.
With community rating you pay over your lifetime and don't find yourself priced out of the market when you need HI most.

Models that allow insurers to apply risk based charges are brilliant for shareholders but dreadful for the sick.

If you opt for one of the private operators you risk being BUPAed. They can pull out of the market at any stage and leave you high and dry.

The mad obsession with making competition the sole consideration in all cases regardless of merit will ultimately cost us dearly.
 

hammer

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
58,180
We all should switch away from VHI. Anyone under 45 or so anyway.

Maybe then the VHI will reduce their rates and do better deals with the HSE :)

switch asap
 

Theresia

New member
Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Messages
3
Twitter
Margretha111
Sorry I drop in after so long time...I am new to Ireland and want to have an health Insurance. What do you recommend me: VHI or Aviva?
 

antidistinctlyminty (ADM)

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Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
3,673
I don't think it is worth the money. Just save it instead and if you get sick you'll have the cash.
I thought that until I had to have spinal surgery which would have set me back 36k if I didnt have insurance. And I would be in a wheelchair now and still waiting for the op if I didn't have cover.
 

Theresia

New member
Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Messages
3
Twitter
Margretha111
Thanks for reply. I am 50 now since February. I am getting older. I think it is worth the money for an Insurance.
 

nonpartyboy

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Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
6,782
I thought that until I had to have spinal surgery which would have set me back 36k if I didnt have insurance. And I would be in a wheelchair now and still waiting for the op if I didn't have cover.
Just because your insurer was charged 36k does not mean you would have to pay that if you were a public patient, in fact you wouldn't unless you went private personally.
 

antidistinctlyminty (ADM)

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
3,673
Just because your insurer was charged 36k does not mean you would have to pay that if you were a public patient, in fact you wouldn't unless you went private personally.
I would have had no choice - if I didn't pay I would have ended up in a wheelchair waiting for the operation
 


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