Vigilante Action. Citizens taking the law into their own hands.

Spirit Of Newgrange

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Here is a shocking story from the morning papers.

Man attempting to groom 11 year old girl caught in a sting operation.


Now, notwithstanding the why's and wherefores of this individual case. It seems to set a very worrying precedent. People taking the law into their own hands. Abandoning confidence in the Gardai and taking up the tools of justice themselves. At a time when recidivist criminals are walking our streets with dozens, if not hundreds, of previous convictions does this present any surprise ? All of this poses a number of relevant questions :

- is it ever acceptable to bypass the organs of State and pursue justice yourself ?
- does the public have enough confidence in the Gardai and Courts to let them get on with the task of justice ?
- what is the experience and lessons from other countries and times in history ?
- do you approve of , or vilify people who take the law into their own hands ?
- which crimes are more/less acceptable to be subject to citizen action ?
- what are the implications for policymakers ?

Please keep the discussion polite, legal and provide links to support your arguments.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-man-under-investigation-for-attempting-to-groom-11yearold-36470913.html
 
Last edited:


mr_anderson

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It is claimed he had been under the impression he had been in contact with a young girl, but had actually been in conversation with a woman from the group.
From a legal perspective, did he break any law ?
He can't be charged with meeting a girl who does not exist (irrespective of age).
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Here is a shocking story from the morning papers.

Man attempting to groom 11 year old girl caught in a sting operation.


Now, notwithstanding the why's and wherefores of this individual case. It seems to set a very worrying precedent. People taking the law into their own hands. Abandoning confidence in the Gardai and taking up the tools of justice themselves. At a time when recidivist criminals are walking our streets with dozens, if not hundreds, of previous convictions does this present any surprise ? All of this poses a number of relevant questions :

- is it ever acceptable to bypass the organs of State and pursue justice yourself ?
- does the public have enough confidence in the Gardai and Courts to let them get on with the task of justice ?
- what is the experience and lessons from other countries and times in history ?
- do you approve of , or vilify people who take the law into their own hands ?
- which crimes are more/less acceptable to be subject to citizen action ?
- what are the implications for policymakers ?

Please keep the discussion polite, legal and provide links to support your arguments.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-man-under-investigation-for-attempting-to-groom-11yearold-36470913.html
I don't know the details, but right away I see a slight inaccuracy in the OP.

People haven't "abandoned" confidence - the Gardai and the DoJ have systematically crapped on the citizens, have failed to be accountable themselves and have very much picked and chosen the laws they want to enforce.

There still hasn't been a peep about the Gardai effectively letting an illegal alien wander around until he murdered one, assaulted 2 others in Dundalk - they don't see themselves as accountable so hard to have confidence in them, OR the judges who let lads with 300+ convictions at large to re-offend.
 

Cruimh

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From a legal perspective, did he break any law ?
He can't be charged with meeting a girl who does not exist (irrespective of age).
Conspiring to break the law is a crime in itself.

I'm torn here - I see where the police are coming from in respect of the dangers of vigilante activity and citizens arrests, but at least these people caught someone that seemed to have bad intentions. The Police should have more sting operations, such as this one.

US police chief 'kutecop4you' arrested in child sex sting - BBC News
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Conspiring to break the law is a crime in itself.

I'm torn here - I see where the police are coming from in respect of the dangers of vigilante activity and citizens arrests, but at least these people caught someone that seemed to have bad intentions. The Police should have more sting operations, such as this one.

US police chief 'kutecop4you' arrested in child sex sting - BBC News
One thing is for sure - the Gardai would never, ever, expose another member of the force if they were caught in a sting op.

They might make up some crap about a bogus case if one of their colleagues tried to shine a light on the malpractice within the ranks, but would circle the wagons if he wasn't a whistleblower.
 

Levellers

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The public have lost all confidence in the administration of justice in this state.

The fact that white collar criminals can walk around without any fear of arrest never mind conviction. The fact that Gardai and Tusla can fabricate a child sex abuse claim against a whistleblower and no arrests are made.
 

Mercurial

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Here is a shocking story from the morning papers.

Man attempting to groom 11 year old girl caught in a sting operation.


Now, notwithstanding the why's and wherefores of this individual case. It seems to set a very worrying precedent. People taking the law into their own hands. Abandoning confidence in the Gardai and taking up the tools of justice themselves. At a time when recidivist criminals are walking our streets with dozens, if not hundreds, of previous convictions does this present any surprise ? All of this poses a number of relevant questions :

- is it ever acceptable to bypass the organs of State and pursue justice yourself ?
- does the public have enough confidence in the Gardai and Courts to let them get on with the task of justice ?
- what is the experience and lessons from other countries and times in history ?
- do you approve of , or vilify people who take the law into their own hands ?
- which crimes are more/less acceptable to be subject to citizen action ?
- what are the implications for policymakers ?

Please keep the discussion polite, legal and provide links to support your arguments.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-man-under-investigation-for-attempting-to-groom-11yearold-36470913.html
I think perhaps the right approach in cases such as this is to have legal penalties in cases where citizens impede the Gardaí from doing their jobs effectively. If, however, a vigilante group cannot be shown to have acted in a way that is either illegal, or in a way that impedes the Gardaí from doing their job, then I don't have a problem with it.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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The public have lost all confidence in the administration of justice in this state.

The fact that white collar criminals can walk around without any fear of arrest never mind conviction. The fact that Gardai and Tusla can fabricate a child sex abuse claim against a whistleblower and no arrests are made.
Lost implies some action on the public's side - in reality it was stolen, wrestled from them by the Gardai themselves who for years have been obsessed by secrecy and sliveen political policing....€50m in pay restoration and all the OT they want, but not a Garda to be seen when there's a problem.
 

mr_anderson

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Conspiring to break the law is a crime in itself.
But there was no underage girl to break it with.
You can't conspire to break a law where the pieces of that law do not exist.

It's like a conspiracy to break the law by robbing a bank, without the bank existing.
There is no case.
 

Spirit Of Newgrange

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Many drivers break a red traffic-light, at the junction near me, every hour. So, do i set up a camera and try to catch them ? I cannot see it impeding the Gardai ? or maybe i am missing a fine legal point ?
 

Clanrickard

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Wagmore

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What's to stop the gimp saying he was only meeting up to warn her not to talk to strangers
 

Analyzer

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Three men beat the sh!te out of a maFFia poltician, in a car park, at the back of a pub in Mulhuddart in the 1970s. The crime was that he was hassling a woman in a relationship with one of them, who happened also to be the sister of the other two.

If anything they did not go far enough.

And the official media response was that it never happened.
 

Man or Mouse

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One thing is for sure - the Gardai would never, ever, expose another member of the force if they were caught in a sting op.

They might make up some crap about a bogus case if one of their colleagues tried to shine a light on the malpractice within the ranks, but would circle the wagons if he wasn't a whistleblower.
They also circle the wagons when he is a whistleblower.
 

Cruimh

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But there was no underage girl to break it with.
You can't conspire to break a law where the pieces of that law do not exist.

It's like a conspiracy to break the law by robbing a bank, without the bank existing.
There is no case.
It was the intent to commit a crime. Which was what got Jeffry Archer into jail - he conspired to set up a false alibi - but the alibi was not needed. It never "existed" as it was never used in court. Still the crime was conspiracy.
 

farnaby

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Not sure I'd call this case vigilantism if no violence was intended or perpetrated. It's a reaction to online anonymity that gives such predators a sense of impunity, a metaphorical dark alleyway out of public sight. Letting them know that they can and will be exposed, and thus discouraging making their fantasies of illegal acts real, is a good thing IMHO.
 


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