Vote Yes, we 'need our European friends'.

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Lisbon 2 passed because we were frightened by our traitor elite into changing our vote on the basis that the state of the economy they screwed up would be improved by 'our European friends'. Given that we are apparently about to be held hostage on the loans that they forced us to take (and which Merkel's mouthing off made inevitable) to the tune of nearly 7%, is there anyone here still so utterly stupid as to believe that these people are our 'friends'?

With 'friends' like these...

Vote yes for jobs, boys and girls...
 


CookieMonster

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That goodwill from our "partners in Europe" really paid off, what?
 

Ramon21

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Well we are bailing your out right? That's some goodwill.
 

rockofcashel

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Aye, where are all the FG "pro-Euro" cheerleaders now... remember their cries that Enda is a vice President of the EPP, Europes biggest political grouping, and he'll look after us.. shower of fools.. the Germans will let him know in no uncertain terms where we stand.. pay up and shut up

Entering into the euro, was one of, if not the worst economic decisions, ever made by any Irish Government. And no amount of pro-Euro bulls**t will change that. We could quite easily have got along with our own currency outside of the Euro, and we wouldn't have ended up with the "free credit" that we splurged on for the last decade. Nor would we have had any problems in manipulating our own currency i.e. devaluation, if we needed it.

Fupping gas hearing political parties calling the Shinners economic illiterates, when they made the most basic economic mistake of any nation, giving up their own currency.

Europe has screwed us over good and proper, and no amount of pro euro spin will change that
 

Sucker Punch

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Well we are bailing your out right? That's some goodwill.

It aint so much a bail-out as a further bail-in by us, into more debt we don't want.

Why doesn't Germany France et all who hold corporate Irish bonds just pay themselves the bailout money instead of giving it to us (the soveriegn) to pay back to them?
 

Berliner

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Aye, where are all the FG "pro-Euro" cheerleaders now... remember their cries that Enda is a vice President of the EPP, Europes biggest political grouping, and he'll look after us.. shower of fools.. the Germans will let him know in no uncertain terms where we stand.. pay up and shut up

Entering into the euro, was one of, if not the worst economic decisions, ever made by any Irish Government. And no amount of pro-Euro bulls**t will change that. We could quite easily have got along with our own currency outside of the Euro, and we wouldn't have ended up with the "free credit" that we splurged on for the last decade. Nor would we have had any problems in manipulating our own currency i.e. devaluation, if we needed it.

Fupping gas hearing political parties calling the Shinners economic illiterates, when they made the most basic economic mistake of any nation, giving up their own currency.

Europe has screwed us over good and proper, and no amount of pro euro spin will change that
*Signed*
 

Panopticon

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First, we don't know whether the rate will be nearly 7%.

Second, you seem to be assuming that if we voted No, Europe would think we were great guys and give us a 3% loan. Not going to happen. Please give us your counterfactual before claiming your world would be better.

Whining about money given voluntarily because more was not given; the ingrate beggar throughout the ages.
 

Panopticon

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We could quite easily have got along with our own currency outside of the Euro
Eh... no.

The last time we tried that was the 70s and 80s, universally regarded as a golden age of the Irish economy. Our young people were leaving the economy just to tell the rest of the world how great it was
 

DeGaulle 2.0

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Aye, where are all the FG "pro-Euro" cheerleaders now... remember their cries that Enda is a vice President of the EPP, Europes biggest political grouping, and he'll look after us.. shower of fools.. the Germans will let him know in no uncertain terms where we stand.. pay up and shut up

Entering into the euro, was one of, if not the worst economic decisions, ever made by any Irish Government. And no amount of pro-Euro bulls**t will change that. We could quite easily have got along with our own currency outside of the Euro, and we wouldn't have ended up with the "free credit" that we splurged on for the last decade. Nor would we have had any problems in manipulating our own currency i.e. devaluation, if we needed it.

Fupping gas hearing political parties calling the Shinners economic illiterates, when they made the most basic economic mistake of any nation, giving up their own currency.

Europe has screwed us over good and proper, and no amount of pro euro spin will change that
We could have got along very well in the euro too if the country had been run properly. And devaluation is not necessarily the answer - look at Poland where 62% of residential mortgages are in euros, Swiss francs or dollars. Cheap credit would still have been available - just in a different currency.

What happened here is primarily an Irish-created problem.
 

wombat

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What happened here is primarily an Irish-created problem.
Never, the Brits, the catholic church, EU are all to blame, we're responsible for nothing:lol:
 

Sucker Punch

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We could have got along very well in the euro too if the country had been run properly. And devaluation is not necessarily the answer - look at Poland where 62% of residential mortgages are in euros, Swiss francs or dollars. Cheap credit would still have been available - just in a different currency.

What happened here is primarily an Irish-created problem.
So Ireland's is responsible for the Greek default, the deficts in Spain, Portugal and Belguim too?

Their is more to this than the local maFFia.
 
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First, we don't know whether the rate will be nearly 7%.

Second, you seem to be assuming that if we voted No, Europe would think we were great guys and give us a 3% loan. Not going to happen. Please give us your counterfactual before claiming your world would be better.

Whining about money given voluntarily because more was not given; the ingrate beggar throughout the ages.
You're not Polly Toynbee are you? If we had been allowed to stick with our no vote, we'd still be in crap, the crisis was home-grown (as I have said all along). My point is that 'Yes for jobs' and 'Yes because we need their friendship and for them to pat us on the head and patronize us and tell us what good boys and girls we are because we can't stand not being told how great we are' were the methods of selling the Treaty, and they were lies. How could we possibly have been treated any worse by our 'partners' in the EU? And the money is NOT being given, it is being lent, at extortionate and opportunistic rates. Rates that would not have been charged had Merkel kept her mouth shut.
 

Green eyed monster

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Eh... no.

The last time we tried that was the 70s and 80s, universally regarded as a golden age of the Irish economy. Our young people were leaving the economy just to tell the rest of the world how great it was
It was the corpo tax thing that has lifted our economy relative to the 70's and 80's, not the Euro.

The Euro was the mother of the building bubble, no other way all that cheap Euro credit could ever have been extended had we had our own currency. The Europeans should have been watching and introduced a device to prevent such things from happening but they were happy to speculate on our bubble as well (and this the reason why they want to offer 'bailout' money, to support our repayment of those debts). They and the Irish authorities share in the responsibility for all this (including the opposition).

We could have been ok in the Euro provided we didn't cut away all the obstacles to proper regulation (Which McCreevy and Ahern and Cowen did), provided we had a responsible government and a financial regulator/central bank which was not completely asleep at the wheel. It is not solely 'the Euro' that is to blame it is how the currency has been managed, then and now - by all those who control these matters, our own government, the ECB, the Eu.

Things could have been controlled if the very same principles of free marketeerism had been followed, if the Govt (which is supposed to be tasked with looking after public finances not private finances) had found a way to cut off speculator banks from the economy so that if necessary (and it was necessary) the mooring rope could be cut with the words 'you gambled, you lost'. Why weren't they anticipating these things and are we putting into place systems today to protect the country from bubbles and other scams in the future (i am not oprimistic)?

Because i don't believe in accidents or surprise events in world economics, i believe some 'accidents' are even planned. I believe that with these kinds of economic deformities certain parties can (in theory) make money out of them with insider knowledge or foreknowledge.
 
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Panopticon

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You're not Polly Toynbee are you? If we had been allowed to stick with our no vote, we'd still be in crap, the crisis was home-grown (as I have said all along). My point is that 'Yes for jobs' and 'Yes because we need their friendship and for them to pat us on the head and patronize us and tell us what good boys and girls we are because we can't stand not being told how great we are' were the methods of selling the Treaty, and they were lies. How could we possibly have been treated any worse by our 'partners' in the EU? And the money is NOT being given, it is being lent, at extortionate and opportunistic rates. Rates that would not have been charged had Merkel kept her mouth shut.
I am not Polly Toynbee. If we voted No, we would certainly have NO goodwill whatsoever from the European Union. How do you think the Irish need for assistance would be framed if we opposed the treaty for such dumb reasons as "no microchips in our children"?

If you think this is the worst situation possible for Ireland and we could not possibly be treated any worse by the EU, you need context.
 

Magror14

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Angela Merkel has to convince her electorate that bailing out Ireland is a good idea. Had we voted no to Lisbon her job would be made a lot more difficult. Politics, perception, and the intangible stuff is important for this bailout.
 
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I am not Polly Toynbee. If we voted No, we would certainly have NO goodwill whatsoever from the European Union. How do you think the Irish need for assistance would be framed if we opposed the treaty for such dumb reasons as "no microchips in our children"?

If you think this is the worst situation possible for Ireland and we could not possibly be treated any worse by the EU, you need context.
Yes, because that was part of the case that I or most opponents made against Lisbon - 'microchips in our kids'. Straw man, much?

There is NO goodwill being offered here, there is a loan at extortionate rates which THEY forced on us. I am well aware, and have been lambasting them for years for it, that FF and the PDs are to blame for our dire predicament, but that doesn't mean that we now have to be Frau Merkel's b1tch. If she had kept her mouth shut two weeks ago, we might not have ended up in this situation.
 
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So, it has been announced. 5.8% average, massively punitive, take out our own loan to ourself from plundering the pension fund and the average is much higher.

Where is this 'goodwill' we were promised for changing our vote????

We couldn't have been bullied and lied to by our government on behalf of the EU bureaucrats, could we?????? No way....
 


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