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Voting Poles - votes for immigrants ?


cyberianpan

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Are we going to regularize the immigrant situation ? I know that people from UK can vote in our general elections but why not our new immigrants ? They pay taxes etc ?

Who would they vote for ?

cYp
 

FutureTaoiseach

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They shouldn't get the vote unless they get Irish Citizenship. The situation regarding the UK is tenable because of a relatively similar level of prosperity in the 2 countries, hence they won't come here in overwhelming numbers. Allowing immigrants from poor countries to vote risks - because of them tending to be adults - creating a powerful immigrant bloc in the Dail thus making future immigration control impossible.

There is a risk also that the renewed Catholic conservatism that has emerged in Poland could roll back the recent liberalisation for one of 2 possible reasons: either in order to pander to this segment of the electorate politicians supporting this, or else in order to get the support of a potential "Polish party".
 

Worldbystorm

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Not like the poor old British who had to put up with tens of thousands of impoverished Irish flocking to their cities, entrenching Labour in power in certain constituencies..etc, etc...
 

sackville

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cyberianpan said:
Are we going to regularize the immigrant situation ? I know that people from UK can vote in our general elections but why not our new immigrants ? They pay taxes etc ?

Who would they vote for ?

cYp
it would be yet another characteristic cave in to pro-immigrationism. As for their voting habits I'd suspect they'd generally prefer low-tax, low spend Parties.
 

yellowfish

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The situation regarding the UK is tenable because of a relatively similar level of prosperity in the 2 countries,
we came here because property prices meant we could afford a house in the country, something we could never have hoped to do in England- i suppose that would make us economic migrants. I know a few others who moved for around the same reasons.
However i take your point. But why do you presume people would vote on block as migrants, dont you think that once here they would have the same concerns as the rest of the voters here?
i think that european citizens should be able to vote in the country they are resident, pay taxes etc, its the democratic thing to do- NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPERENSATION- seabird should recognize that, im sure most others would as well.
 

JCSkinner

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cyberianpan said:
Are we going to regularize the immigrant situation ? I know that people from UK can vote in our general elections but why not our new immigrants ? They pay taxes etc ?

Who would they vote for ?

cYp
How about we regularise the situation the way the Estonians are regularising the situation in relation to their Russian minority? I can't see our Eastern visitors complaining if we treat them as they treat their own minorities when it comes to civic rights, can you?
Oh, wait...
 

FutureTaoiseach

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yellowfish said:
The situation regarding the UK is tenable because of a relatively similar level of prosperity in the 2 countries,
we came here because property prices meant we could afford a house in the country, something we could never have hoped to do in England- i suppose that would make us economic migrants. I know a few others who moved for around the same reasons.
However i take your point. But why do you presume people would vote on block as migrants, dont you think that once here they would have the same concerns as the rest of the voters here?
i think that european citizens should be able to vote in the country they are resident, pay taxes etc, its the democratic thing to do- NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPERENSATION- seabird should recognize that, im sure most others would as well.
But English people already have a vote in General Elections so you shouldn't be complaining! :)

They might not vote as a bloc on everything. However developing-world migrants would probably on issues pertaining to deportations, amnesties etc. especially if their cousins would be involved. It can also be expected that the prevailing attitudes in their countries of origin would find their way into our politics if many of them had the vote. In the case of Poland this would be good on some issues e.g. suspicious of socialism, but bad on others e.g. Catholic social conservatism. And don't start me on future immigrants from Muslim countries like Turkey...
 

Nils

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FutureTaoiseach said:
[ It can also be expected that the prevailing attitudes in their countries of origin would find their way into our politics if many of them had the vote. In the case of Poland this would be good on some issues e.g. suspicious of socialism, but bad on others e.g. Catholic social conservatism. ...
The state of those Poles: conservative, drunken, rural Catholics...

What are they like? :wink:

So, on this form, I'd say they'll probably vote for FF or FG - if they get the chance...
 

Catalpa

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Bad idea, there is no way the Franchise should be extended to any more non nationals.

We should restore the Constitution to the way it was in 1984.

I know all SF supporters here will support this move for reasons we don't need to go into here.
 

rockofcashel

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Catalpa said:
Bad idea, there is no way the Franchise should be extended to any more non nationals.

We should restore the Constitution to the way it was in 1984.

I know all SF supporters here will support this move for reasons we don't need to go into here.
what move Catalpa, extending the franchise, or returning to the position pre-1984.

On the whole, non-Irish people already participate in Irish democracy at local level, and, if they show a long term committment to the country (possibly living here for a period of time), pay their taxes, get involved in their local communities etc, is there any real democratic reason why these people shouldn't have the franchise extended ?

Oh, and please FT, don't start the "they wouldn't vote for a united Ireland" nonsense.
 

Catalpa

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rockofcashel said:
Catalpa said:
Bad idea, there is no way the Franchise should be extended to any more non nationals.

We should restore the Constitution to the way it was in 1984.

I know all SF supporters here will support this move for reasons we don't need to go into here.
what move Catalpa, extending the franchise, or returning to the position pre-1984.

On the whole, non-Irish people already participate in Irish democracy at local level, and, if they show a long term committment to the country (possibly living here for a period of time), pay their taxes, get involved in their local communities etc, is there any real democratic reason why these people shouldn't have the franchise extended ?

Oh, and please FT, don't start the "they wouldn't vote for a united Ireland" nonsense.
Ah so young and so innocent is our Roc. :oops:

Didn't the Party Elders tell you that back in '84 there was one Party that actually opposed changing the Constitution of the State in order to extend the Franchise?

Guess which one it was? :wink:
 

FutureTaoiseach

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what move Catalpa, extending the franchise, or returning to the position pre-1984.

On the whole, non-Irish people already participate in Irish democracy at local level, and, if they show a long term committment to the country (possibly living here for a period of time), pay their taxes, get involved in their local communities etc, is there any real democratic reason why these people shouldn't have the franchise extended ?

Oh, and please FT, don't start the "they wouldn't vote for a united Ireland" nonsense.
I want the Irish people to continue to control this country. That is the ultimate issue for me.
 

rockofcashel

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Catalpa said:
Ah so young and so innocent is our Roc. :oops:

Didn't the Party Elders tell you that back in '84 there was one Party that actually opposed changing the Constitution of the State in order to extend the Franchise?

Guess which one it was? :wink:
I'm not so young nor innocent Catalpa, nor am I arguing that the franchise should be extended. There is a debate here however, that extends beyond the limits of "them's foreigners", so they shouldn't get a vote.
 

yellowfish

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Dec 1, 2004
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[
quote]But English people already have a vote in General Elections so you shouldn't be complaining!
having already taken part in one vote i sort of new that :wink:

They might not vote as a bloc on everything. However developing-world migrants would probably on issues pertaining to deportations, amnesties etc. especially if their cousins would be involved. It can also be expected that the prevailing attitudes in their countries of origin would find their way into our politics if many of them had the vote. In the case of Poland this would be good on some issues e.g. suspicious of socialism, but bad on others e.g. Catholic social conservatism. And don't start me on future immigrants from Muslim countries like Turkey...
[/quote] even if this is the case. so what? people resident in a state should have the right to vote on who represents them. you cant just object to people voting because you dont think they will vote in your own best interests, and their is not any reason to believe that people would vote in the way you prescribe anyway. I dont think you give the individuals concerned enough credit
voting is what makes a democracy,
and how about- NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPERENSATION- surely people who are/have been contributing to the tax take should have a say in how the money is allocated.
 

Catalpa

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rockofcashel said:
Catalpa said:
Ah so young and so innocent is our Roc. :oops:

Didn't the Party Elders tell you that back in '84 there was one Party that actually opposed changing the Constitution of the State in order to extend the Franchise?

Guess which one it was? :wink:
I'm not so young nor innocent Catalpa, nor am I arguing that the franchise should be extended. There is a debate here however, that extends beyond the limits of "them's foreigners", so they shouldn't get a vote.
Foreigners shouldn't get the vote Full Stop.
 

redneckwally

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Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
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Many Irish seem to have lost any sense of themselves as a unique people. The immigrants are not Irish, have no sense of the historical evolution of the country and cannot be relied on to vote in a way which is in the longterm interests of Ireland.
 

smiffy

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Apr 11, 2004
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FutureTaoiseach said:
They shouldn't get the vote unless they get Irish Citizenship. The situation regarding the UK is tenable because of a relatively similar level of prosperity in the 2 countries, hence they won't come here in overwhelming numbers. Allowing immigrants from poor countries to vote risks - because of them tending to be adults - creating a powerful immigrant bloc in the Dail thus making future immigration control impossible.
That's a rather repulsive political philosophy - deciding who gets the vote on the basis of how wealthy their country of origin is. It's not far off selling Irish passports to those rich enough to afford them.

Personally, I think the current constitutional position is fair enough - that the right to vote in national elections is conferred on attaining citizenship, although I think some of the restrictions on citizenship through naturalisation should be amended. But the idea that you should determine how citizenship or the right to vote is granted based on how you think new citizens might vote in the future displays an utter contempt on the part of FutureTaoiseach for the institution of citizenship or the franchise itself.
 
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