Walter Long: The man who destroyed John Redmond

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In 1916, Mr Asquith instructed Lloyd George to begin immediate negotiations for the implementation of Home Rule in Ireland. Loyd George set to work, and despite the difficulties, he succeeded in getting an agreement between the Nationalists and Unionists.

But the agreement depended on "creative ambiguity". He promised Redmond that the 6 counties would be excluded from home rule on a temporary basis. But he privately assured Edward Carson that the exclusion would be permanent. Nonetheless the agreement seemed to be ready to go.

However the deal was opposed by the prominent Tory Walter Long. Long was an Englishman who had previously been Chief Secretary of Ireland and also a Unionist MP for South Dublin. Long and his friend Lord Lansdowne mustered support within the British cabinet and they forced changes in the deal. It would be explicitly stated that the exclusion of the 6 Ulster counties was parmanent and also the number of Irish MPs in westminster was to be reduced. Lloyd George presented these changes to Redmond as a fait accompli. Redmond had no choice but to reject the changes. When the matter was made public in the House of Commons, it was a huge humiliation for Redmond. Afterwards Carson wanted to shake Redmond's hand but Redmond ignored him. It was the greatest poitical defeat of Redmond's career.

Walter Long and Lord Lansdowne had won their fight to prevent the introduction of Home Rule. In doing so they helped change the course of Irish history, accelerating the demise of Redmond and his party and strengthening the hands of those with more extreme bviews on how Ireland should pursue the fight for independence
https://books.google.ie/books/about/Redmond.html?id=rXxSrgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en
 


Dame_Enda

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County boundaries drawn up in 1587 should not have been the basis for partition. If it had to happen it should have reflected the demography on the ground.

Interestingly NI hasn't had county councils since the 1980s. It's possible that a later partition would have been along district council lines and more representative
 
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GDPR

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County boundaries drawn up in 1587 should not have been the basis for partition. If it had to happen it should have reflected the demography on the ground.
I think that Derry as a port was seen as strategic.
 

Niall996

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In 1916, Mr Asquith instructed Lloyd George to begin immediate negotiations for the implementation of Home Rule in Ireland. Loyd George set to work, and despite the difficulties, he succeeded in getting an agreement between the Nationalists and Unionists.

But the agreement depended on "creative ambiguity". He promised Redmond that the 6 counties would be excluded from home rule on a temporary basis. But he privately assured Edward Carson that the exclusion would be permanent. Nonetheless the agreement seemed to be ready to go.

However the deal was opposed by the prominent Tory Walter Long. Long was an Englishman who had previously been Chief Secretary of Ireland and also a Unionist MP for South Dublin. Long and his friend Lord Lansdowne mustered support within the British cabinet and they forced changes in the deal. It would be explicitly stated that the exclusion of the 6 Ulster counties was parmanent and also the number of Irish MPs in westminster was to be reduced. Lloyd George presented these changes to Redmond as a fait accompli. Redmond had no choice but to reject the changes. When the matter was made public in the House of Commons, it was a huge humiliation for Redmond. Afterwards Carson wanted to shake Redmond's hand but Redmond ignored him. It was the greatest poitical defeat of Redmond's career.



https://books.google.ie/books/about/Redmond.html?id=rXxSrgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en
Maybe finally the penny dropped that particular day for Redmond and he finally copped that peaceful negotiations with an entity built on violent oppression, pillage and colonial exploitation was never a runner, had never achieved anything and never would. Luckily there were courageous individuals at that time who recognized the folly of Redmond and his ilk and shortly thereafter forced the issue, defeating the British militarily, and gaining for 'most of' Ireland, it's rightful independence. To the Protestants/Unionist traitors/scum in the South at the time and those who still exist wishing we were still part of their beloved Royal global murder machine, tough. Get over it.
 

realistic1

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In 1916, Mr Asquith instructed Lloyd George to begin immediate negotiations for the implementation of Home Rule in Ireland. Loyd George set to work, and despite the difficulties, he succeeded in getting an agreement between the Nationalists and Unionists.

But the agreement depended on "creative ambiguity". He promised Redmond that the 6 counties would be excluded from home rule on a temporary basis. But he privately assured Edward Carson that the exclusion would be permanent. Nonetheless the agreement seemed to be ready to go.

However the deal was opposed by the prominent Tory Walter Long. Long was an Englishman who had previously been Chief Secretary of Ireland and also a Unionist MP for South Dublin. Long and his friend Lord Lansdowne mustered support within the British cabinet and they forced changes in the deal. It would be explicitly stated that the exclusion of the 6 Ulster counties was parmanent and also the number of Irish MPs in westminster was to be reduced. Lloyd George presented these changes to Redmond as a fait accompli. Redmond had no choice but to reject the changes. When the matter was made public in the House of Commons, it was a huge humiliation for Redmond. Afterwards Carson wanted to shake Redmond's hand but Redmond ignored him. It was the greatest poitical defeat of Redmond's career.



https://books.google.ie/books/about/Redmond.html?id=rXxSrgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en
The deaths of thousands of Irish men on the fields of France, was a hell of a lot more extreme than what came during the War of Independence, Civil war and the more recent troubles.
 

Eire1976

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Why would English Tories care about the 6 NE counties in Ireland?
 

derryman

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In 1916, Mr Asquith instructed Lloyd George to begin immediate negotiations for the implementation of Home Rule in Ireland. Loyd George set to work, and despite the difficulties, he succeeded in getting an agreement between the Nationalists and Unionists.

But the agreement depended on "creative ambiguity". He promised Redmond that the 6 counties would be excluded from home rule on a temporary basis. But he privately assured Edward Carson that the exclusion would be permanent. Nonetheless the agreement seemed to be ready to go.

However the deal was opposed by the prominent Tory Walter Long. Long was an Englishman who had previously been Chief Secretary of Ireland and also a Unionist MP for South Dublin. Long and his friend Lord Lansdowne mustered support within the British cabinet and they forced changes in the deal. It would be explicitly stated that the exclusion of the 6 Ulster counties was parmanent and also the number of Irish MPs in westminster was to be reduced. Lloyd George presented these changes to Redmond as a fait accompli. Redmond had no choice but to reject the changes. When the matter was made public in the House of Commons, it was a huge humiliation for Redmond. Afterwards Carson wanted to shake Redmond's hand but Redmond ignored him. It was the greatest poitical defeat of Redmond's career.



https://books.google.ie/books/about/Redmond.html?id=rXxSrgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en
Interesting . I always blamed Bonar Law.
 

Dimples 77

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In 1916, Mr Asquith instructed Lloyd George to begin immediate negotiations for the implementation of Home Rule in Ireland. Loyd George set to work, and despite the difficulties, he succeeded in getting an agreement between the Nationalists and Unionists.

But the agreement depended on "creative ambiguity". He promised Redmond that the 6 counties would be excluded from home rule on a temporary basis. But he privately assured Edward Carson that the exclusion would be permanent. Nonetheless the agreement seemed to be ready to go.

However the deal was opposed by the prominent Tory Walter Long. Long was an Englishman who had previously been Chief Secretary of Ireland and also a Unionist MP for South Dublin. Long and his friend Lord Lansdowne mustered support within the British cabinet and they forced changes in the deal. It would be explicitly stated that the exclusion of the 6 Ulster counties was parmanent and also the number of Irish MPs in westminster was to be reduced. Lloyd George presented these changes to Redmond as a fait accompli. Redmond had no choice but to reject the changes. When the matter was made public in the House of Commons, it was a huge humiliation for Redmond. Afterwards Carson wanted to shake Redmond's hand but Redmond ignored him. It was the greatest poitical defeat of Redmond's career.



https://books.google.ie/books/about/Redmond.html?id=rXxSrgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en


It's hardly a sound agreement if there is that sort of a showstopping unresolved issue in it.

Long was right to push the isue, and clairify what the actual position was.
 

parentheses

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It's hardly a sound agreement if there is that sort of a showstopping unresolved issue in it.

Long was right to push the isue, and clairify what the actual position was.

Fair point, I guess. It was the beginning of the end for Redmond.
 

Who is John Galt?

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The position wasn't totally lost until Dev's gang killed Collins.
If he had survived, the 1926 review might have pushed Unionist domination east of the Bann ?
 
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between the bridges

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Maybe finally the penny dropped that particular day for Redmond and he finally copped that peaceful negotiations with an entity built on violent oppression, pillage and colonial exploitation was never a runner, had never achieved anything and never would. Luckily there were courageous individuals at that time who recognized the folly of Redmond and his ilk and shortly thereafter forced the issue, defeating the British militarily, and gaining for 'most of' Ireland, it's rightful independence. To the Protestants/Unionist traitors/scum in the South at the time and those who still exist wishing we were still part of their beloved Royal global murder machine, tough. Get over it.
Pffft if it wasn't for us who'd be about to beatch slap ye big girls blouses...
 

Roberto Jordan

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The position wasn't totally lost until Dev's gang killed Collins.
If he had survived, the 1926 review might have pushed Unionist domination east of the Bann ?
Don't forget that if Collins had lived Ireland's economy wild also have bloomed, we would have been unimpaired by the Great Depression.also the pratiscing Catholic , Irish speaking,GAA loving west cork man would have prioritized the promotion of all things Protestant , Anglophile and generally " more sophisticated" than the "culture" of the Gael. He would have done this while bedding women he never met or met only briefly at a dinner party one night in 1922 and done so prior to leading Ireland into ww2 as a combatant - but no Irishmen would have died. In short we would have had a melange of modern day Sweden, Australia, San Francisco and Munich - and had it from 1922 onwards.
And had it all because one man lived - if I park the sarcasm - , a 32 year old bookkeeper from clonakilty with a particular skill for meeting organization and intrigue - but no other discernible superhuman skills if one actually steps back - and may well have been the castles man in our intelligence function.
Forgive me if I have my doubts

Oh and by the way he would have died peacefully in his bed , an old and reviled politician - like all his contemporaries- including the man whose outlook was closest to his own in the pre treaty cabinet ( Dev) , if he hadn't Been half cut when driving back to cork and ignored the advice of his ADC dalton ( who actually, you know, had fought in battle unkind the general) to keep bloody driving....
 

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Walter Long on wiki

Walter Hume Long, 1st Viscount Long PC JP FRS (13 July 1854 – 26 September 1924) was a British Unionist politician. In a political career spanning over 40 years, he held office as President of the Board of Agriculture, President of the Local Government Board, Chief Secretary for Ireland, Secretary of State for the Colonies and First Lord of the Admiralty. He is also remembered for his links with Irish Unionism and served as Leader of the Irish Unionist Party in the House of Commons from 1906 to 1910.
Carson, in a bitter riposte, said of Long "The worst of Walter Long is that he never knows what he wants, but is always intriguing to get it".[23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Long,_1st_Viscount_Long#Irish_politics
 

diaspora-mick

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Conservatives and Unionists were one party in those days.
They still are !

On 11 July 2016, Theresa May became the leader of the Conservative Party with immediate effect following the withdrawal from the leadership election of her sole remaining opponent, Andrea Leadsom. She was appointed Prime Minister of the United Kingdom on 13 July 2016. She has promised social reform and a more centrist political outlook for the Conservative Party and its government.[68] In a speech after her appointment, May emphasized the term Unionist in the name of the party, reminding all of "the precious, precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland."[69]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK)#Conservatives_and_Unionists_.281867.E2.80.931965.29

Although the NI "Unionists" (the "official" ones) are a bit pale around the gills these days having lost most of the ground to the DUPies and others ...
 


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