War crimes and mistakes; it's our mistake but never our fault.

McTell

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Strong essay from FOT about Birmingham in 1974; and how SF TDs are quick to fault serbs in the 1990s but aren't calling for enquiries about their associates' crimes.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/fake-birmingham-apology-is-part-of-the-ira-s-twisting-of-history-1.3153609


This goes to the nub of why most of us over-40s in the south won't ever vote SF. A lot of keen reformist under-40s who might vote SF tell me they've changed, there never was a war, it was all someone else's fault, something to do with civil rights long ago, and what are ye havin yerself? This article explains our mentality, and you don't have to agree.

We remember the pub visits selling papers, the way that the less intelligent got caught up in it, how an awful lot of killing was needed to guarantee civil rights for a minority of a minority. How fraternal it was with Cuba, the red brigades, the soviet empire, the basques, the PLO, Gadafy... all baaad-ass people.

If the IRA had nothing to do with SF, then SF will have no problem criticising its crimes. If SF won't make that effort, then you're asking yourself why not...



The same party that pledged on Tuesday in the Dáil to “continue to challenge and oppose any attempts” at “the glorification of war criminals” has never even been able to bring itself to describe Birmingham and similar massacres by the IRA as crimes.
At the heart of this evasion is a brazen lie: that when the IRA slaughtered civilians it did so accidentally. Hayes, in his BBC interview, went so far as to claim that he and the other IRA members involved in the Birmingham bombings “had no intention of hurting anybody”. This might be dismissed as a grotesque absurdity if it did not encapsulate a larger rewriting of history in which the IRA was just a more robust version of the civil rights movement that acted reluctantly to defend Catholics from attack.
 


between the bridges

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Shin Flake only want to recognize links to the 'good' provo's who walk on water and nat the 'bad' provo's who made mistakes, but nat forgetting that those mistakes were only made because themuns started it...
 

PO'Neill

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Don't all military action runs the risk of civilian death ? Tell me of a force or army that condemns itself for taking up arms and it's inevitable consequences. The fundamental difference between the two sides is that Provos were trying to overthrow an occupation force upholding a sectarian statelet, while the Brits/RUC/UDR/loyalists were trying to preserve that same institutional state thuggery.

Does it bother you that the Free Sate and SDLP aided and abetting the Brits as much as possible in carrying out this violence in it's various guises McTell ?
 

PO'Neill

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Shin Flake only want to recognize links to the 'good' provo's who walk on water and nat the 'bad' provo's who made mistakes, but nat forgetting that those mistakes were only made because themuns started it...
What's so funny about the deaths of the first people in the troubles, all nationalists of course murdered by the guise of police force in the RUC and B Specials such as 67 year old Frank McCloskey beaten to death by the RUC and 9 year old Patrick Rooney when the RUC opened fire on the Divis Flats with live rounds from an armored car ? Almost as funny as poor Gordon's daughter and the rest of the cenotaph huggers crushed together in your home town eh bollox ?

CAIN: Sutton Index of Deaths
 

RasherHash

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Strong essay from FOT about Birmingham in 1974; and how SF TDs are quick to fault serbs in the 1990s but aren't calling for enquiries about their associates' crimes.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/fake-birmingham-apology-is-part-of-the-ira-s-twisting-of-history-1.3153609


This goes to the nub of why most of us over-40s in the south won't ever vote SF. A lot of keen reformist under-40s who might vote SF tell me they've changed, there never was a war, it was all someone else's fault, something to do with civil rights long ago, and what are ye havin yerself? This article explains our mentality, and you don't have to agree.

We remember the pub visits selling papers, the way that the less intelligent got caught up in it, how an awful lot of killing was needed to guarantee civil rights for a minority of a minority. How fraternal it was with Cuba, the red brigades, the soviet empire, the basques, the PLO, Gadafy... all baaad-ass people.

If the IRA had nothing to do with SF, then SF will have no problem criticising its crimes. If SF won't make that effort, then you're asking yourself why not...



The same party that pledged on Tuesday in the Dáil to “continue to challenge and oppose any attempts” at “the glorification of war criminals” has never even been able to bring itself to describe Birmingham and similar massacres by the IRA as crimes.
At the heart of this evasion is a brazen lie: that when the IRA slaughtered civilians it did so accidentally. Hayes, in his BBC interview, went so far as to claim that he and the other IRA members involved in the Birmingham bombings “had no intention of hurting anybody”. This might be dismissed as a grotesque absurdity if it did not encapsulate a larger rewriting of history in which the IRA was just a more robust version of the civil rights movement that acted reluctantly to defend Catholics from attack.
People have the right to fight for freedom and undoubtedly mistakes were made.

All armies make mistakes and people die.

I'm all for world peace and disarmament.

Thanks.
 

IvoShandor

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People have the right to fight for freedom and undoubtedly mistakes were made.

All armies make mistakes and people die.

I'm all for world peace and disarmament.

Thanks.
Enniskillen, Birmingham, Guildford, La Mon, Bloody Friday , even Claudy could be considered mistakes (although still, at best, recklessness).
Kingsmills, Tullyvallen Orange hall, Teebane, Joanne Mathers:these were crimes, under any definition, not mistakes (unless under the skin-crawling PIRA notion that they were "mistakes", since, in hindsight, they did the cause more harm than good)
 

redneck

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1974 was a terrible year. There was 2 major atrocities. The Dublin Monaghan bombings in May, and the Birmingham pub bombings in November.
Neither should have happened in my opinion.
 

Niall996

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Enniskillen, Birmingham, Guildford, La Mon, Bloody Friday , even Claudy could be considered mistakes (although still, at best, recklessness).
Kingsmills, Tullyvallen Orange hall, Teebane, Joanne Mathers:these were crimes, under any definition, not mistakes (unless under the skin-crawling PIRA notion that they were "mistakes", since, in hindsight, they did the cause more harm than good)
I don't think you can call them mistakes. The chances/risk factor of people getting killed or maimed were simply too high. At some point extreme recklessness in putting bombs where innocent people are gathered en masse is criminal in itself - too many moving parts - too much can go wrong - and at some point almost certain to go wrong - and did go wrong, several times. That's unforgivable. And ultimately destroyed the IRA. Fighting recognised professional combatants in a war or destroying the 'machinery of state' as it were is one thing, chancing it with innocent lives is another. They may have 'hoped' no one was hurt nut that's way too lame I'm afraid. The deliberate stuff on the other side is just utterly unspeakable full stop.
 

PO'Neill

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I don't think you can call them mistakes. The chances/risk factor of people getting killed or maimed were simply too high. At some point extreme recklessness in putting bombs where innocent people are gathered en masse is criminal in itself - too many moving parts - too much can go wrong - and at some point almost certain to go wrong - and did go wrong, several times. That's unforgivable. And ultimately destroyed the IRA. Fighting recognised professional combatants in a war or destroying the 'machinery of state' as it were is one thing, chancing it with innocent lives is another. They may have 'hoped' no one was hurt nut that's way too lame I'm afraid. The deliberate stuff on the other side is just utterly unspeakable full stop.
A combination of factors where often the cause of tragedies, bombs been detonated in transport by Brit scrambling devices or in position like when the Brits detonated the Enniskillen bomb, the instability of homemade explosives, detonating devices planted in IRA dumps to kill volunteers etc Regardless all ultimately victims of British occupation and the inevitable reaction to its violence.
 

redneck

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I have lived through lots of wars, mainly involving America, Britain Russia and some 3 world country.
examples:
Vietnam 1965- 1975
El Salvador / Central America 1979-1999
Iraq parts 1 and 2, 1991- present
Afghanistan 2000-present.
Israel/Palestine 1948- Present
Bosnia 1993-1998
 

Sweet Darling

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People have the right to fight for freedom and undoubtedly mistakes were made.

All armies make mistakes and people die.

I'm all for world peace and disarmament.

Thanks.
It was a civil rights issue, until what's his name that did us all a favour by heading of to hell a while back started firing his tommy gun
in the hope the brain dead brits would start going cowboy.
 

Sweet Darling

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A combination of factors where often the cause of tragedies, bombs been detonated in transport by Brit scrambling devices or in position like when the Brits detonated the Enniskillen bomb, the instability of homemade explosives, detonating devices planted in IRA dumps to kill volunteers etc Regardless all ultimately victims of British occupation and the inevitable reaction to its violence.
Or maybe your bomb makers were not very bright.
 

Sweet Darling

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Don't all military action runs the risk of civilian death ? Tell me of a force or army that condemns itself for taking up arms and it's inevitable consequences. The fundamental difference between the two sides is that Provos were trying to overthrow an occupation force upholding a sectarian statelet, while the Brits/RUC/UDR/loyalists were trying to preserve that same institutional state thuggery.

Does it bother you that the Free Sate and SDLP aided and abetting the Brits as much as possible in carrying out this violence in it's various guises McTell ?
Yep, the military action by what's his name firing his tommy gun, started the braindead paras shooting up civil rights marchers.
PS
you lot should be a bit more great full to the SDLP for introducing your dear leader to his new controllers.
You know, The ones who using the black arts of manipulation and diplomacy had Dear leader not only signing the Good Friday Treaty,
but recommending the rest of his disciples to vote for it.

Priceless.
 
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Niall996

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A combination of factors where often the cause of tragedies, bombs been detonated in transport by Brit scrambling devices or in position like when the Brits detonated the Enniskillen bomb, the instability of homemade explosives, detonating devices planted in IRA dumps to kill volunteers etc Regardless all ultimately victims of British occupation and the inevitable reaction to its violence.
I don't buy that tbh. Think about it. If the bombers really expected the bars in Birmingham to be fully and safely evacuated then their target was essentially an empty bar! Not exactly a strategic priority. If you wanted to send a shock wave through British society and put NI on the front page, bomb a train line or a power line that would bring London to a standstill or outside significant locations like Westminster. Things that could have been done safely and without risk to innocents. The idea of putting a ticking bomb under a table inside a packed bar and hoping for the best is unconscionable. Those events are never going to fade from Irish history. When people in the future look back on the Troubles in 4min videos on You Tube, they'll see twenty seconds on the Civil Rights era, 10 seconds on the Protestant domination and then three an a half minutes of gut-wrenching bombing after events and scenes of despairing innocents. It was a catastrophic direction for the PIRA to take. And Sinn Fein today are co owners of that legacy, by choice.
 

PO'Neill

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I don't buy that tbh. Think about it. If the bombers really expected the bars in Birmingham to be fully and safely evacuated then their target was essentially an empty bar! Not exactly a strategic priority. If you wanted to send a shock wave through British society and put NI on the front page, bomb a train line or a power line that would bring London to a standstill or outside significant locations like Westminster. Things that could have been done safely and without risk to innocents. The idea of putting a ticking bomb under a table inside a packed bar and hoping for the best is unconscionable. Those events are never going to fade from Irish history. When people in the future look back on the Troubles in 4min videos on You Tube, they'll see twenty seconds on the Civil Rights era, 10 seconds on the Protestant domination and then three an a half minutes of gut-wrenching bombing after events and scenes of despairing innocents. It was a catastrophic direction for the PIRA to take. And Sinn Fein today are co owners of that legacy, by choice.
Didn't the IRA have thousands of operations where it was just to do economic damage only not just in the north but London, Manchester etc Jayus don't tell me you were old enough to have lived thru the period coming out with that but get your 'knowledge' off Youtube for feck's sake :roll:
 

Niall996

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Don't all military action runs the risk of civilian death ? Tell me of a force or army that condemns itself for taking up arms and it's inevitable consequences. The fundamental difference between the two sides is that Provos were trying to overthrow an occupation force upholding a sectarian statelet, while the Brits/RUC/UDR/loyalists were trying to preserve that same institutional state thuggery.

Does it bother you that the Free Sate and SDLP aided and abetting the Brits as much as possible in carrying out this violence in it's various guises McTell ?
I think you're stretching it describing the placement of a bomb inside a pub full of ordinary innocent people out having a drink and 'hoping' everyone somehow gets out in time as a military action.
 

Sweet Darling

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I don't buy that tbh. Think about it. If the bombers really expected the bars in Birmingham to be fully and safely evacuated then their target was essentially an empty bar! Not exactly a strategic priority. If you wanted to send a shock wave through British society and put NI on the front page, bomb a train line or a power line that would bring London to a standstill or outside significant locations like Westminster. Things that could have been done safely and without risk to innocents. The idea of putting a ticking bomb under a table inside a packed bar and hoping for the best is unconscionable. Those events are never going to fade from Irish history. When people in the future look back on the Troubles in 4min videos on You Tube, they'll see twenty seconds on the Civil Rights era, 10 seconds on the Protestant domination and then three an a half minutes of gut-wrenching bombing after events and scenes of despairing innocents. It was a catastrophic direction for the PIRA to take. And Sinn Fein today are co owners of that legacy, by choice.
RA/SF by bombing pubs in B'ham were looking for a back lash against the large Irish community from the British people who could not make a difference between ra scum and hard working Irish people trying to make a living.
Even loyal loyalists had the s$%t kicked out of them
 

Fullforward

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I wonder how many places in England would have been attacked by the IRA if Mother England hadn't occupied our Island.
 

Niall996

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Didn't the IRA have thousands of operations where it was just to do economic damage only not just in the north but London, Manchester etc Jayus don't tell me you were old enough to have lived thru the period coming out with that but get your 'knowledge' off Youtube for feck's sake :roll:
Not sure what your last line means but on the first line, if there were 'thousands of operations' that did economic damage to Britain they're lost in the mists of time. What will never be lost of the atrocities. Economic damage to the North - hmm, tourism killed, yes, inward investment, yes, trade, yes. But who suffered? Most of the Proddies where underwritten by cheques from London anyway. Economic damage to Britain? I can guarantee you 99% of people wont know what you're talking about when you claim economic damage to Britain. Sorry, but it's the truth.
 


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