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Was Ireland A Relatively Liberal Country Before The Famine?


General Urko

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I have no evidence to suggest that it was except maybe the size of the population. Is it possible that all changed utterly post famine, especially for those who survived and stayed in terms of how conservative a society we became? I would imagine joining religious orders became a much more viable career option as very few if any of them (the Catholic ones) died during the famine! Also we would hardly have had the rate of unmarried for a life time adults which we eventually did, highest in the world at one stage! And of course the Magdelyne concentration camps had yet to come into their own!
I throw it open to the house?
 

Kensington

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Ireland was a relatively liberal country after it.

If protecting human rights, property rights and democracy are examples of being liberal, then few if any countries in Europe could hold a torch to us during the 20th century.

The Irish state's protection and treatment of religious minorites was also very commendable.

yes, the church had too much power. However, Ireland is certainly not the only country where sexual abuse on a large happened. The fact that we have had many enquiries makes our problems very visible.

There's alot of whinging about how backward ireland was and is, but very little acknowledgment of the good.
 

ruserious

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The Catholic Church de-liberalised the place.
 

cricket

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I've never studied history beyond primary school, but wasn't the pre famine era the time of Catholic Emancipation ? This, I would say, probably tightened the hand of the church amongst it's people as it would have been associated with nationalism.
The real damage was done in the years immediately after independence when the politicians cowered before Maynooth and the country was too war weary to resist.
 

an modh coinniolach

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You'll be looking for Emmet Larkin's The Devotional Revolution and KH Connell's Irish Peasant Society, but I think both have been critiqued/revised (delete to taste) extensively sunce the early 70's.

Not at computer at moment but if you're interested I'll get you full refs. later.
 

Catalpast

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Ireland was a relatively liberal country after it.

If protecting human rights, property rights and democracy are examples of being liberal, then few if any countries in Europe could hold a torch to us during the 20th century.

The Irish state's protection and treatment of religious minorites was also very commendable.

yes, the church had too much power. However, Ireland is certainly not the only country where sexual abuse on a large happened. The fact that we have had many enquiries makes our problems very visible.

There's alot of whinging about how backward ireland, but very little acknowledgment of the good.
Very Good Post

Ireland was not a particularly conservative society by Global standards

However we tend to compare ourselves to other societies that our emigrants went to

In large part these were more socially liberal in their urban areas (where most Irish emigrants ended up) and thus that's where people took their comparisons from...
 

General Urko

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Why would the famine make Ireland less liberal?
Fear for one thing and a view that it might be retribution from God! The vast majority of those left behind are illiterate peasants!
 

Telemachus

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Posts #2 and #3 are nonsense. It was a traditional society so would have been deeply illiberal by the standards of modern post 60s social liberalism.

Sorry.

I think your OP is messy also. You should talk about what exactly you mean in more clarity and use paragraphs.
 

Riadach

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Why would the famine make Ireland less liberal?

It made it more religious, because many viewed the famine as god's judgement. Pre-famine Ireland was quite riven with anti-clericalism. This wasn't a new thing either.
 

Catalpast

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Fear for one thing and a view that it might be retribution from God! The vast majority of those left behind are illiterate peasants!
Incoming Incoming....

Potential Troll Alert here

GU - if you want to engage in serious historical discussion then by all means go ahead

Otherwise...:?
 

General Urko

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Ireland was generally (certainly beyond the Pale) the most rednecked area within the British Isles! prior to the famine and no doubt long after it! Mind you coming to provincial Ireland from mainland Britain was probably virtually akin in difficulty to going to India then!
 

Analyzer

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Daft theory. In this country it seems to be the height of intellectual sophistication to connect events and trends that did not function as cause and effect.

Incidentally, there were numerous famines. And in some localities there were many episodes of food shortage.

I wonder sometimes about the level of make-believe with which people analyze past and current events in this country.
 

General Urko

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Incoming Incoming....

Potential Troll Alert here

GU - if you want to engage in serious historical discussion then by all means go ahead

Otherwise...:?
Outgoing, outgoing, Outgoing Alert
No trolling at all, follow the thread like a good whatever you are!:roll:
 

Riadach

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Daft theory. In this country it seems to be the height of intellectual sophistication to connect events and trends that did not function as cause and effect.

Incidentally, there were numerous famines. And in some localities there were many episodes of food shortage.

I wonder sometimes about the level of make-believe with which people analyze past and current events in this country.
I'll take historians theories on the penitential reform more seriously than yours, thanks.
 

Bobcolebrooke

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It made it more religious, because many viewed the famine as god's judgement. Pre-famine Ireland was quite riven with anti-clericalism. This wasn't a new thing either.


But there were previous famines and plagues.
 

Riadach

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But there were previous famines and plagues.
Not ones that killed 1 million and forced another 1 million to leave. Other famines did not cause the massive social, religious and linguistic change that this one did. It destroyed a whole class of people.
 

General Urko

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But there were previous famines and plagues.
There was an even bigger one in proportional terms in the early 18th century and one which could have been of a similar size in 1780 or so, but our native parliament made sure in that case it did not escalate!
But what explains the size of the Irish population given that we had no industrial base to justify it at the time?
 

Catalpast

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There was an even bigger one in proportional terms in the early 18th century and one which could have been of a similar size in 1780 or so, but our native parliament made sure in that case it did not escalate!
But what explains the size of the Irish population given that we had no industrial base to justify it at the time?
The population explosions from the 18th century were the result of the Agricultural Revolution/s

- not the Industrial Revolution/s

But the latter laid the base for further advances in medical and scientific revolutions that led to yet further population growth


The Famine of 1740 - 1741 was due to extreme weather events and was really only very severe over one Winter

- though it possibly killed proportionally as many people as the ones in the 1840s

The Famine of 1780 I have not heard of - can you fill us in?
 
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