Was the War of Independence Ireland's "Brexit moment"?

Breanainn

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The 1918 general election was, at the time (and possibly remains), the greatest democratic exercise of Irish political intent, but as with Brexit, the interpretation of the result was far from unanimous. Many SF voters were indeed committed republicans, but a large proportion were former IPP supporters, who viewed SF as the most effective means of achieving self-government, with dominion status already being floated.

Similarly, partition and borders were also to the fore, with some adamant as to its inadmissability, others prepared to haggle as to the geographical boundaries of the unionist domain. The climax of such nationalist divisions arrived during the Truce, with Dev producing the pointedly impractical Document No 2, while the moderates ultimately settled for the Anglo-Irish Treaty. Given the consequent irrevocable SF split, could the Tories fracture in a similar manner, as occurred in the Victorian era over the Corn Laws?
 


Talk Back

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In 1918, the people of Ireland voted for the freedom of Ireland - they did not vote for dominion status.
 

Talk Back

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The 1918 general election was, at the time (and possibly remains), the greatest democratic exercise of Irish political intent, but as with Brexit, the interpretation of the result was far from unanimous. Many SF voters were indeed committed republicans, but a large proportion were former IPP supporters, who viewed SF as the most effective means of achieving self-government, with dominion status already being floated.

Similarly, partition and borders were also to the fore, with some adamant as to its inadmissability, others prepared to haggle as to the geographical boundaries of the unionist domain. The climax of such nationalist divisions arrived during the Truce, with Dev producing the pointedly impractical Document No 2, while the moderates ultimately settled for the Anglo-Irish Treaty. Given the consequent irrevocable SF split, could the Tories fracture in a similar manner, as occurred in the Victorian era over the Corn Laws?
What was impractical about Document No 2? The occupied 6 county status after reunification in the GFA is the same as in Document No 2 - it would carry on with it's own assembly for a while, but in an all Ireland context.
 

Telstar 62

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De Valera's party was comprehensively beaten in the 1922 Election.

Within weeks, his Irregulars were starting a vicious Civil War that
destroyed the country, and led to generations of bitterness.

So a tidy portion of this country ( after the Treaty ) couldn't accept a
democratic vote then, either!!!

Remember that the next time the Fianna Failures are lecturing us all
about the pre-eminence of 'democracy'!!!;)
 

Talk Back

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De Valera's party was comprehensively beaten in the 1922 Election.

Within weeks, his Irregulars were starting a vicious Civil War that
destroyed the country, and led to generations of bitterness.

So a tidy portion of this country ( after the Treaty ) couldn't accept a
democratic vote then, either!!!

Remember that the next time the Fianna Failures are lecturing us all
about the pre-eminence of 'democracy'!!!;)
You don't know what you are posting about - Fianna Fail didn't exist in 1922.

Sinn Fein ran a joint panel of candidates to form a coalition government to third Dail Eireann - Sinn Fein were not running against themselves for the same seats in the same constituencies - votes were transferred between the Sinn Fein candidates - the pro and anti breakdown is meaningless.
 

Barroso

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De Valera's party was comprehensively beaten in the 1922 Election.

Within weeks, his Irregulars were starting a vicious Civil War that
destroyed the country, and led to generations of bitterness.

So a tidy portion of this country ( after the Treaty ) couldn't accept a
democratic vote then, either!!!

Remember that the next time the Fianna Failures are lecturing us all
about the pre-eminence of 'democracy'!!!;)
for the umpteenth time- Fianna Fáil didn't exist until several years later.
The 1922 election was essentially no election, it was a restatement of the status quo, by agreement.

Éamon de Valera and Michael Collins worked out a pact approved on 20 May 1922.[2] They agreed that the pro-treaty and anti-treaty factions would fight the general election jointly and form a coalition government afterwards. The sitting member would not be opposed by the other faction.
 

Telstar 62

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You don't know what you are posting about - Fianna Fail didn't exist in 1922.

Sinn Fein ran a joint panel of candidates to form a coalition government to third Dail Eireann - Sinn Fein were not running against themselves for the same seats in the same constituencies - votes were transferred between the Sinn Fein candidates - the pro and anti breakdown is meaningless.

Earth to Talk Back - we know De Valera founded Fianna Fail later.;)

Are you ( or they ) disassociating De Valera from Fianna Fáil??:lol:
 

Talk Back

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That's right - there was no vote on the treaty because everyone (except Griffith) wanted to remove the electorate from the responsibility of voting on the treaty until the voter registry was updated and the Free State constitution was ready for debate - and they wanted to avert war.

That is why an election 'Pact' was agreed in Dail Éireann. The 'Pact' was binding, and accepted by all in the interest of peace. Dail Eireann approved the terms of 'Pact' election on May 20th 1922. https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1922-05-20/2/
 

Telstar 62

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The General Election of 1922 was fought about the Treaty.

That was the main issue at stake.
( Only months after the Treaty )

The people spoke - and De Valera and the bitter diehards didn't accept it.:cool:
 

Barroso

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That's right - There was no vote on the treaty because everyone (except Griffith) wanted to remove the electorate from the responsibility of voting on the treaty until the voter registry was updated and the Free State constitution was ready for debate - and they wanted to avert war.

That is why an election 'Pact' was agreed in Dail Éireann. The 'Pact' was binding, and accepted by all in the interest of peace. Dail Eireann approved the terms of 'Pact' election on May 20th 1922. https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1922-05-20/2/
But unfortunately Peace didn't happen.
And the reactionaries won the war and ran the state for the first, crucial, decade of its existence.
 

Telstar 62

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But unfortunately Peace didn't happen.
And the reactionaries won the war and ran the state for the first, crucial, decade of its existence.
Thanks to your 'heroes', obviously...;)

Take responsibility for the carnage and legacy of the Civil War, in that case.
 

Talk Back

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Section one of the 'Pact' states -

That a National Coalition Panel for this Third Dáil, representing both Parties in the Dáil, and in the Sinn Féin Organisation, be sent forward on the ground that the national position requires the entrusting of the Government of the country into the joint hands of those who have been the strength of the national situation during the last few years, without prejudice to their present respective positions.

There is nothing in the terms of the 'Pact' under which the election was held about the treaty. The Sinn Fein Party also approved the terms of the 'Pact' on May 23rd at an extraordinary Ard-Fheis.

Collins himself at the Ard-Fheis said that the 'Pact' was more important than the treaty.
 

Spanner Island

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Oh Christ... do we have to look at everything through a f***ing Brexit prism now?

It's tedious enough as a one off.
 

Talk Back

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Thanks to your 'heroes', obviously...;)

Take responsibility for the carnage and legacy of the Civil War, in that case.
You don't know what you are posting about - are you even Irish?

The renegade Free State army (deserts and betrays an organization, country, or set of principles) started the civil war - they had no authority to attack the Irish Republic on June 28th 1922, and suppress Dail Eireann two days before it was scheduled to meet to discuss the results of the 'Pact' election on June 30th, and to form the new Dail Eireann (3rd) on July 1st. at 12 PM.
 

Strawberry

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Oh Christ... do we have to look at everything through a f***ing Brexit prism now?

It's tedious enough as a one off.
Its an insult to the Irish and every other country that fought to de-colonize themselves to compare them to the ignorant sh1tfest that is Brexit.
 

Barroso

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Thanks to your 'heroes', obviously...;)

Take responsibility for the carnage and legacy of the Civil War, in that case.
I think you'll find that most of the carnage was caused by the pro-Treaty side; even a brief perusal of the documentation will show that the anti-Treaty side fought a "holding" war, and allowed themselves to be pushed back and back rather than fight an all-out war.

Of course, the anti-Treaty side was responsible to some extent for the war, but not for the "carnage" as such.

It is an awful pity that the 1922 election wasn't a proper election; it's also a pity that Labour didn't fight the previous election. It might have helped produce a more plural society from the outset.
It would almost certainly have ensured that what became Cumann na nGaedhal didn't win a majority in 1922 (as they didn't in 1927).
But this is history.
 

Sweet Darling

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You don't know what you are posting about - are you even Irish?

The renegade Free State army (deserts and betrays an organization, country, or set of principles) started the civil war - they had no authority to attack the Irish Republic on June 28th 1922, and suppress Dail Eireann two days before it was scheduled to meet to discuss the results of the 'Pact' election on June 30th, and to form the new Dail Eireann (3rd) on July 1st. at 12 PM.
Grow up. The Irish have spoken.
Anti Treaty traitors up until recent history continued to lose their deposits (as their vote was so small) every time they went before the Irish people.:cool:

Provo Shin Fein only begun making progress in the polls after they stopped murdering the Irish and began promising FREE STUFF if they get elected. Ooo and we think they are also into a united Ireland or somtin.
 
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