We Deserve Everything We Get

Dunlin3

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tonyedit

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I mean, this.. "All the people canvassed, virtually without exception, are service-oriented. They want results, whether it is a new kitchen in their council house or better broadband in the Donegal area." needs pointing out???

There's no doubt that our political system is suffering profound systemic rot. We need to fix it. Where do we start? Have any of the posters on this forum got any practical ideas aside from wailing and gnashing. I'm not keen on any of the established parties, though in principal I'd be centre left with an eye on the cost of things. So where do I go for my reform?

And don't say Labour.
 

Libero

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A canvass isn't a perfect guide to the level of localism and clientelism in the electorate, but it's not a bad guide.

Those "what can you do for me" voters are only being rational, in their own frames of reference.

They're used to thinking it doesn't make much difference to national politics who they elect as their TD. (And they're usually right, with the executive dominating the legislature and little policy difference between the two centrist parties.) So they filter out national considerations and think of what a local TD can deliver on the ground. Even if a local candidate is ministerial material, that too is processed in terms of what he/she can deliver to the constituency. A serving minister is actively punished if he/she fails to be seen to deliver, no matter how good the performance as minister.

It's the same all over the country, from Dublin to Kerry to the hills of Dongeal South West.

A by-election in a tight Dáil might shift that frame of reference, but people in the pub will talk first and foremost about a candidate's local profile, local workrate and local achievements.

The big two parties are pretty handy at local politics, and Labour are improving all the time. Don't expect them to lead the charge to change things, no matter how clear the evidence that localist politics produces poor national results.
 

Propforward

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My first attempt at this post had a slightly different title and seems to have been removed so I'll try again.

There is no hope for this country without radical political reform.



Ó Dómhnaill finds local issues hold sway - The Irish Times - Thu, Nov 11, 2010
I'm not sure how being born into a dumb feudal kleptocracy dressed up as a republic and protected by the might of the eu necessaarily confers moral responsibility on me.

neither does the fact also that the dumbest people in western europe all congregate around the most isolated and remote parts of the continent.

I'll turn what you say on its head - there is no radical political reform with out hope for the country.
We need people like u and me and all the disenchanted to envision how the country can be and then work to bring it about.

or we need 20 lads with guns and hopefully a fairly benign leader. :)
 

Mitsui2

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I'm not sure how being born into a dumb feudal kleptocracy dressed up as a republic and protected by the might of the eu necessaarily confers moral responsibility on me.
Do you know, I'm driven to consider that very matter every time I see some comment about how "We're all to blame". And no matter how I look at it, I can't feel terribly responsible for this mess. We here in this house lived within our means, ignored all offers of cheap loans that came through the letterbox on expensively-printed leaflets from banks and other sources, paid our bills, voted against the kleptocrats, warned anyone who would listen that the madness would end horribly (not based on any special economic insight but on common sense, reading the newspapers and having long and not infrequently painful experience of the pocket-lining crooks who were running the place) etc... etc... etc. We were often regarded as fools then; it's a bit much to be repeatedly told now that we were party to causing this ruin.

(Congrats on "dumb feudal kleptocracy dressed up as a republic", by the way. I couldn't have come up with a pithier description myself - and I've been trying since the early 1980s)
 

greengoose2

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Do you know, I'm driven to consider that very matter every time I see some comment about how "We're all to blame". And no matter how I look at it, I can't feel terribly responsible for this mess. We here in this house lived within our means, ignored all offers of cheap loans that came through the letterbox on expensively-printed leaflets from banks and other sources, paid our bills, voted against the kleptocrats, warned anyone who would listen that the madness would end horribly (not based on any special economic insight but on common sense, reading the newspapers and having long and not infrequently painful experience of the pocket-lining crooks who were running the place) etc... etc... etc. We were often regarded as fools then; it's a bit much to be repeatedly told now that we were party to causing this ruin.

(Congrats on "dumb feudal kleptocracy dressed up as a republic", by the way. I couldn't have come up with a pithier description myself - and I've been trying since the early 1980s)
May I join you? I don't have a guilty conscience either. Mind you, the taxes we paid were spent all the same. Badly!
 

Mitsui2

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May I join you?
Feel free.

While I saw plenty of folk that I'd previously have regarded as sane lose the run of themselves completely during the years of the Celtic Hyena, I also saw plenty who didn't.

And indeed, our taxes were spent badly then, especially since quite a lot of them found their ways into FF-linked pockets (evoting machine storage, anyone?)

The one definitely good thing that came out of those years for me personally was that a blank refusal to pay insane, inflated sums for simple work about the house meant I had to acquire a set of practical skills I'd probably never otherwise have learned. In retrospect it seems one of the better trade-offs that my own pigheadedness has led me into. :)



It's a sort of ironic comment that the blowout years were lean ones for DIY stores, which (like others) increasingly had to transform themselves into shops where one bought "lifestyles".
 

Panopticon

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Have heart. Donegal is the most localist and anti-national constituency in the country, due to relative poverty and its location. Even if it's that bad in Donegal, it's better in the rest of the country.

Practically all of Irish constituency politics happens on an axis from Donegal on the left to Dun Laoghaire on the right. Whereas Dublin and the cities vote for policies, Donegal votes for personalities. Always has (Dana) but always complains then about how its local heroes seem to be irrelevant or mocked when they open their mouths in the rest of the country.
 

Pauli

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Have heart. Donegal is the most localist and anti-national constituency in the country, due to relative poverty and its location. Even if it's that bad in Donegal, it's better in the rest of the country.

Practically all of Irish constituency politics happens on an axis from Donegal on the left to Dun Laoghaire on the right. Whereas Dublin and the cities vote for policies, Donegal votes for personalities. Always has (Dana) but always complains then about how its local heroes seem to be irrelevant or mocked when they open their mouths in the rest of the country.
They seem to refuse to take a hint and continue to vote for joke candidates like Coughlan and McDaid. No wonder nobody takes them seriously.
 

bokuden

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It's an utterly beautiful place with great music, but it's like Kerry: people up there have a very old way of thinking.
 

tellis1

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Personally I am not to blame and it makes me angry, however collectively as a society we allowed promoted prraised elected and will continue to elect the likes of this scuttering gobsheen.....
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8T0Q03oJSc]YouTube - Padraig Flynn on the Late Late Show 1999[/ame]

I have a neighbour who is the best neighbour in the world in everysense however he still thinks and there is no convincing him otherwise that this man.........
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-bSKsVDr_M&feature=related]YouTube - Living Beyond Our Means[/ame]
...........was a god.

you only have to watch reeling in the years to see what collectively the morons in this country voted for...... berties speech about rejecting underhand dealings with every moral fibre of being in his body..... I am sure poor old Johnny logan could have done a better job than the government appointed fool Mr Patrick Neary.

I remember either Ian Dempsey or Matt Cooper interviewing "new adults" on today FM, who had just reached voter eligibility during this vox pop they asked people who they were voting for and why, one newly eligible lassie replied that she was voting for bertie ...when asked why the only reply that she could give was "that he was so cuddly and like a teddy bear" I thought then what hope for the country if that is the rational for this womans vote. End of rant...
 

popular1

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They seem to refuse to take a hint and continue to vote for joke candidates like Coughlan and McDaid. No wonder nobody takes them seriously.
they vote these people for a reason and part of the reason is that they want people who will use the system to their advantage in every way possible, there are people in donegal livng the best of lives and have been on the dole for over 30 years and workng at the same time all through these years and can go to politicians and get very kind of grant even if they are not entitled to it , some of these politicians have no problem helping these peole getting benefits they know they are not entitled to as long as it does not come out of their pocket. The figures might show 30% unemployment in donegal but there are a hell of a lot of these people working on the side with the full knowledge of local politicians who ahve no problem with it even though its bad for the country. thats why they vote for them. a lot of people would not believe the money wasted in donegal even in times like this.
 

Mondo

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Personally I am not to blame and it makes me angry, however collectively as a society we allowed promoted prraised elected and will continue to elect the likes of this scuttering gobsheen.....
YouTube - Padraig Flynn on the Late Late Show 1999

I have a neighbour who is the best neighbour in the world in everysense however he still thinks and there is no convincing him otherwise that this man.........
YouTube - Living Beyond Our Means
...........was a god.

you only have to watch reeling in the years to see what collectively the morons in this country voted for...... berties speech about rejecting underhand dealings with every moral fibre of being in his body..... I am sure poor old Johnny logan could have done a better job than the government appointed fool Mr Patrick Neary.

I remember either Ian Dempsey or Matt Cooper interviewing "new adults" on today FM, who had just reached voter eligibility during this vox pop they asked people who they were voting for and why, one newly eligible lassie replied that she was voting for bertie ...when asked why the only reply that she could give was "that he was so cuddly and like a teddy bear" I thought then what hope for the country if that is the rational for this womans vote. End of rant...
And the future dynasties continue.

Didn't a judge have to request a pysche evaluation of Bev. Cooper FF - such was her impenetrable arrogance in court????
 

Astral Peaks

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Do you know, I'm driven to consider that very matter every time I see some comment about how "We're all to blame". And no matter how I look at it, I can't feel terribly responsible for this mess. We here in this house lived within our means, ignored all offers of cheap loans that came through the letterbox on expensively-printed leaflets from banks and other sources, paid our bills, voted against the kleptocrats, warned anyone who would listen that the madness would end horribly (not based on any special economic insight but on common sense, reading the newspapers and having long and not infrequently painful experience of the pocket-lining crooks who were running the place) etc... etc... etc. We were often regarded as fools then; it's a bit much to be repeatedly told now that we were party to causing this ruin.

(Congrats on "dumb feudal kleptocracy dressed up as a republic", by the way. I couldn't have come up with a pithier description myself - and I've been trying since the early 1980s)
Couldn't agree more!!!!!!!:D:D:D
 

ICallely

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Couldn't agree more!!!!!!!:D:D:D
Likewise.

I am not to blame, I campaigned to get them out.

I refused to buy an "investment" property.

I warned everyone else to put their money abroad.

I appealed planning decisions "obtained" by the local minister, successfully.

I marched and protested at decisions by incompetent Local Authorities, who rolled over when asked to by powerful vested interests.

It's not MY fault.

It is the fault of the Politicans, who appointed and directed the Regulators.

It is the fault of the Finance Ministers who repeatedly kow-towed to the Construction Sector and it's backers.

It is the Fault of the EU who decided to have a multi national currency without a multi national currency approach to the money markets.

It is the fault of the people who decided to take on a huge mortgage to buy a house in a field in Co Meath.

Most of all, however, it is the fault of the bankers that threw all the principles of their profession out of the window, who looked at common sense and laughed, who sold products to people who barely knew what they were doing, who saw unlimited cheap short-term money and never considered that it wouldn't be there when their borrowings had to be rolled over.

Sorry about the rant, but I'm looking at having to leave my country to ensure my children have a chance in life, because all these dangerous fools took my country and used it as a toilet, just so they could drive a black German Saloon car. And they try to blame ME!

Not my fault.
 

needle_too

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Has to be done -

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVygqjyS4CA]YouTube - Monty Python - Life of Brian - Your're all different[/ame]
 

Pauli

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they vote these people for a reason and part of the reason is that they want people who will use the system to their advantage in every way possible, there are people in donegal livng the best of lives and have been on the dole for over 30 years and workng at the same time all through these years and can go to politicians and get very kind of grant even if they are not entitled to it , some of these politicians have no problem helping these peole getting benefits they know they are not entitled to as long as it does not come out of their pocket. The figures might show 30% unemployment in donegal but there are a hell of a lot of these people working on the side with the full knowledge of local politicians who ahve no problem with it even though its bad for the country. thats why they vote for them. a lot of people would not believe the money wasted in donegal even in times like this.
Throw in the border and the notorious tradition in Ireland of not enforcing the law and you have an entire county of smoke and mirrors.
 


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