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We have benefited from E.U membership


Mr Aphorisms

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Looking at the left and right wing (The Gurg) hysteria over the last few years about the E.U, something has been blocked out entirely. That is, Ireland has benefited greatly from E.U membership. Now, anyone on here familiar with my republican views and even going by my avatar may by a bit surprised at my positive views regarding the European Union.

I was going to do an infamous book length thread, but I'll try and keep it short.

Before Ireland joined the E.U, we were a backward country, economically and politically. Centuries of colonisation, which destroyed our language, culture and lobotomized our population (mainly Catholics), created a servile and slothful populace. Along with the malign Catholic Church, we also became an anti-intellectual country.

An ostensible War for Independence, lead to the partition of the country and the perpetuation of the British capitalist system, as well as the abandonment of the Proclamation of 1916 and the egalitarianism of the first program of the Dail in 1919. In hindsight, a pointless war was fought and James Connolly's nightmare became a reality.

Poverty, an uneducated populace, a weak infrastructure and social infrastructure, Ireland was basically a kip. With such a backward country, unemployment was high which lead to emigration. All of this was before we joined the E.U.

When we did join, we were bombarded with frivolous propaganda from the provo's and Labour. One was conducting a campaign in the North which I have made my views clear about, the other was running around North Korea praising a tyrannical dictatorship. I distinctly remember during the Fiscal Treaty, when Tommy on here had as his sig a quote from PSF about a referendum(can't remember which one) and PSF saying basically if we vote yes, the E.U will take over Ireland militarily. This sort of propaganda was put out by nationalists who believed joining the E.U would be detrimental for Ireland. I'll return to those quack assertions in a few.

But what has happened since we did join? Well, it has not been perfect and I could rant about the wrongs of the E.U more than the rights, but let us look at a few quick examples.

The E.U is the cesspit which was helped fund nearly every major motorway in Ireland such as the M50, as well as our railway transportation systems, such as the Luas.

The E.U is the cesspit that has championed equality in the work place and greater rights for women, races, sexuality in the work place.

The E.U is the cesspit which has set a maximum of 48 hours a week work limit (one of the first things Connolly demanded in the ISRP's first manifesto) as well as ensuring that there are sufficient breaks in the workplace.

The E.U is the cesspit which has put in law that there be paid annually leave.

The E.U is the cesspit which has sought to improve workers' conditions in the workplace and looked to protect workers from toxic hazards in the workplace with regulations.

The E.U is the cesspit which has driven home to our government that education is of the most importance and as part of their 2020 employment strategy, is looking to meet deadlines by 2020, such as getting 75% of 24-65 year olds working in good jobs as well as looking to reduce the school drop out rates (something badly needed in this country).

The E.U is the cess pit which helps funds Ireland's education system through the European Social Fund.

The E.U is the cesspit which has, as part of the Erasmus Programme, allowed our young people to engage in student exchange programmes across the E.U.

The E.U is the cesspit which has allowed children from poor backgrounds to attend Ireland's best university, Trinity College through the Trinity Access Programme.

The E.U is the cesspit which condemned the British government for their use of torture during internment.

The E.U is the cesspit which has helped our agricultural sector.

The E.U is the cesspit which has demanded greater food regulation, such as there must be identification of where the food came, what seeds where used and on from there.

Since joining the E.U, we have seen an augmentation of foreign investment.

Need I go on? There are ways to counter some of those points, particularly the last point, but What was Ireland like before this? As already stated, a country riddled with the virulent Catholic Church which engaged in a campaign of gleichschaltung, savaged our education, while discouraging any plausible reforms, even things such as divorce. No different to the days of following William Smith O'Brien like a cat and telling the crowds after he was finished speaking to ignore what he said.

Infrastructure? Before the 70's, we were a backward kip. Let's be honest.

Political parties with vision? Ah yes, visionaries such as the Cosgrave government, which ignored what had been fought for and perpetuated even the British dress code in the courts. De Valera? Ah yes, the man who was lambasted by Joe Clarke for his actions of ignoring the programme of the first Dail which he was President in, whilst people were on hunger strike starving themselves in Dublin because of the draconian conditions in the tenements. Who else? Haughey? Reynolds? Costello? Lynch? Please, we never had anything but a shower of gombeens and cute hoor's.

Parties that stood up for the people? While the E.U, in my opinion, did nothing in stopping imperialism in the likes of Indonesia at the hands of the Brits, at least they condemned the actions of the Brits in the North. Our tedious and cowardly parties encouraged young men to get their heads smashed in during Civil Rights marches and denounced republicans who stood up to unionists, whilst never denouncing the unionists and the Brits themselves.

Read this and ask yourself. Who has done more to implement some of the following: the Irish governments or the E.U?

It shall be the first duty of the Government of the Republic to make provision for the physical, mental and spiritual well-being of the children, to secure that no child shall suffer hunger or cold from lack of food, clothing, or shelter, but that all shall be provided with the means and facilities requisite for their proper education and training as Citizens of a Free and Gaelic Ireland.
The Irish Republic fully realises the necessity of abolishing the present odious, degrading and foreign Poor Law System, substituting therefor a sympathetic native scheme for the care of the Nation's aged and infirm, who shall not be regarded as a burden, but rather entitled to the Nation's gratitude and consideration. Likewise it shall be the duty of the Republic to take such measures as will safeguard the health of the people and ensure the physical as well as the moral well-being of the Nation.
It shall be our duty to promote the development of the Nation's resources, to increase the productivity of its soil, to exploit its mineral deposits, peat bogs, and fisheries, its waterways and harbours, in the interests and for the benefit of the Irish people.
It shall be the duty of the Republic to adopt all measures necessary for the recreation and invigoration of our Industries, and to ensure their being developed on the most beneficial and progressive co-operative and industrial lines. With the adoption of an extensive Irish Consular Service, trade with foreign Nations shall be revived on terms of mutual advantage and goodwill, and while undertaking the organisation of the Nation's trade, import and export, it shall be the duty of the Republic to prevent the shipment from Ireland of food and other necessaries until the wants of the Irish people are fully satisfied and the future provided for.
It shall also devolve upon the National Government to seck co-operation of the Governments of other countries in determining a standard of Social and Industrial Legislation with a view to a general and lasting improvement in the conditions under which the working classes live and labour.
I have voted NO to every EU Treaty since 2008 and I was strongly opposed to the last. I admit, the E.U has been acting egregiously over the banking system and it is by no means perfect. But lets cut the crap, the EU has benefited Ireland.

The counter arguments from the ULA, PSF and others show that it has been good. I remember the conscription, EU super armies and all of that from Richard Boyd Barrett. I remember being told abortion was on the way. None of this happened, at all, and it never will.

Here's to the E.U! If not for them, who knows what this kip would be like, with a population driven to insanity by the Church and imperialism. I hope we do not leave. I couldn't imagine Ireland's hand being let go and Enda Kenny on his own. A scary thought, indeed.
 

OCicero

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It's all too early to tell. Give this crisis a chance to wind down and after a while see how and in what form the EU survives, and what the ramifications will be for us. If the EU pulls apart, that would also be a good moment for a before and after comparison.

It will be very hard to distinguish between what was EU-driven progress and what was done ourselves: Ireland did see some economic progress say between the fifties and early seventies.
 

FrankSpeaks

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Yes of course we benefited, no need to say any more, good bye thread!
 

Dame_Enda

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I despise the democratic-deficit of the EU and the fact that the structures are never allowed to be put to the test long enough before we are into yet another intergovernmental conference and treaty ratification. You could never accuse the Americans of having rushed their Constitution. They started off with Confederation not until 1787 did they convert to a Federation. Since then their Constitution has only been amended 27 times (once every 8.3 years). We need to be able to test new structures but instead the Establishment rushes ahead without giving us time to do so. The reason is that there is a pre-determined outcome and yet ironically, no end-game. They are so used to the mantra of "ever closer union" - a concept undefined in Maastricht where it first appeared - that they are prepared to continue indefinitely on a journey towards ever greater centralisation irrespective of whether it is in the national or even the European interest.

Having said that I do support some elements of further European integration. Ironically some of it has been made necessary by the mess created by what's there already. I now support a European army, and handing foreign policy over to a European Foreign Minister. The Middle East, global warming and how the European perspective is frequently ignored by Washington have helped changed my mind on this issue. However I continue to demand structural stability and democratic-accountability from a bottom-up perspective. There is excessive elitism and secrecy in Europe, and intergovernmentalism encourages questionable horsetrading which can result in extraneous matters becoming the basis for agreements to changes governments would not otherwise support. I also insist on knowing broadly speaking the final constitutional destination of this project in terms of the division of powers between the states and Brussels, and between the Brussels/Luxembourg institutions themselves. The constitutional rug is constantly being pulled from under us and this foments - as may be the intention - confusion amongst the electorate as to whom they must lobby in order to address their respective concerns. Perhaps this suits the elites who have shown e.g. flouting the Franco-Dutch no votes to the EU Constitition - that they care little for what we think.
 

Mr Aphorisms

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It's all too early to tell. Give this crisis a chance to wind down and after a while see how and in what form the EU survives, and what the ramifications will be for us. If the EU pulls apart, that would also be a good moment for a before and after comparison.

It will be very hard to distinguish between what was EU-driven progress and what was done ourselves: Ireland did see some economic progress say between the fifties and early seventies.
Even if this crisis gets worse, it still cannot be countered that the EU has benefited Ireland. You can blame the German banks all you want and you'd be right too complain about the cheap credit they lent. The fact is, our populace elected the government which allowed the banks to do what they wanted, as well the cosy relationship between the likes of Fitzpatrick and the FF top brass. I am moving more towards the left, day by day, but I thought the idea of capitalism was strong individuality?

No matter how bad the banks were at lending out money, our population took that money, now many are in extreme debt. In a capitalist system in Ireland, we need our hand held by a foreign entity. I perfectly understand Honohan's comments about foreign countries controlling Irish banks. At the time, I read it as an admittance of a global conspiracy to squeeze this country like a lemon. In reality, it makes common sense.

Ireland is the country whose population votes no on referendums without actually knowing why they're voting or simply because they want to get back at the government. The eurobarometer statistics are there to be viewed by all. When you have such a politically inept population, who consistently votes in decrepit parties, there can only be one result.

Because of our history of rape, plunder and exploitation, Ireland is incapable of governing itself.
 

Catalpast

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er OP

- were you even around in 1972?

This part of Ireland was doing fine

The economy had been growing every year since 1958!

We were an Independent Nation State

- beholden to no one

A lot of the changes you have mentioned would have come anyway

I tell you who did well out of the EEC/EU

The Farmers, the Businessmen and the Politicians

Generally speaking the middle classes and professionals

The urban working class got practically nothing...

I would have voted NO in '72 but was a year too young to do so...
 

Catalpast

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Even if this crisis gets worse, it still cannot be countered that the EU has benefited Ireland. You can blame the German banks all you want and you'd be right too complain about the cheap credit they lent. The fact is, our populace elected the government which allowed the banks to do what they wanted, as well the cosy relationship between the likes of Fitzpatrick and the FF top brass. I am moving more towards the left, day by day, but I thought the idea of capitalism was strong individuality?

No matter how bad the banks were at lending out money, our population took that money, now many are in extreme debt. In a capitalist system in Ireland, we need our hand held by a foreign entity. I perfectly understand Honohan's comments about foreign countries controlling Irish banks. At the time, I read it as an admittance of a global conspiracy to squeeze this country like a lemon. In reality, it makes common sense.

Ireland is the country whose population votes no on referendums without actually knowing why they're voting or simply because they want to get back at the government. The eurobarometer statistics are there to be viewed by all. When you have such a politically inept population, who consistently votes in decrepit parties, there can only be one result.

Because of our history of rape, plunder and exploitation, Ireland is incapable of governing itself.
Because of our history of rape, plunder and exploitation, Ireland is incapable of governing itself.

OK - now please remove Bobby Sands from your Avatar:roll:
 

Mr Aphorisms

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er OP

- were you even around in 1972?

This part of Ireland was doing fine

The economy had been growing every year since 1958!

We were an Independent Nation State

- beholden to no one

A lot of the changes you have mentioned would have come anyway

I tell you who did well out of the EEC/EU

The Farmers, the Businessmen and the Politicians

Generally speaking the middle classes and professionals

The urban working class got practically nothing...

I would have voted NO in '72 but was a year too young to do so...
Delusional clap trap. I wasn't around in '72, but many of my family were, running around the inner city barefooted, with no money for shoes, 10 crammed into one tenement. Yes, those were the days.
 

Mr Aphorisms

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Because of our history of rape, plunder and exploitation, Ireland is incapable of governing itself.

OK - now please remove Bobby Sands from your Avatar:roll:
So, we don't have the most politically inept population in Europe, no? And we make conscientious decisions when voting, yes? Go on, give me an example.

Look up Max Kieser debating Pat Rabbitte. He jokinglly makes reference to a newspaper article about Sean Quinn and civil unrest. He thought the Irish would cut off his head if given the chance. Instead, the article focused on the thousands who would protest if he went to jail. 'What is wrong with you?' said, Max.
 

Catalpast

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Delusional clap trap. I wasn't around in '72, but many of my family were, running around the inner city barefooted, with no money for shoes, 10 crammed into one tenement. Yes, those were the days.
Yeah sure they were...:roll:
 

Catalpast

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So, we don't have the most politically inept country in Europe, no? And we make conscientious decisions when voting, yes? Go on, give me an example.
The most politically inept Country in Europe is Germany

Who once again have bitten off more than they can chew
 

Mr Aphorisms

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The most politically inept Country in Europe is Germany

Who once again have bitten off more than they can chew
It is quite clear you're not interested in any serious discussion. Another of the new trolls ruining the place, I see. Now, please, one last time, examples of Ireland being a politically thoughtful country. Surely you can give one example.
 

OCicero

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So, we don't have the most politically inept population in Europe, no? And we make conscientious decisions when voting, yes? Go on, give me an example.

Look up Max Kieser debating Pat Rabbitte. He jokinglly makes reference to a newspaper article about Sean Quinn and civil unrest. He thought the Irish would cut off his head if given the chance. Instead, the article focused on the thousands who would protest if he went to jail. 'What is wrong with you?' said, Max.
Give me some examples of a politically adriot European population, and why you think so. Just out of interest.
 

Catalpast

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It is quite clear you're not interested in any serious discussion. Another of the new trolls ruining the place, I see. Now, please, one last time, examples of Ireland being a politically thoughtful country. Surely you can give one example.
I have been on the Site since 2004 me ol flower

examples of Ireland being a politically thoughtful country

Perhaps you would explain what you mean by that term and provide examples

It could mean whatever one wanted it to mean IMO so unless you are more specific there is no point discussing it
 

Mr Aphorisms

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Give me some examples of a politically adriot European population, and why you think so. Just out of interest.
But the argument you are getting at is 'sure all countries are like ours'. That maybe so, look at the States, but why do you think we are always the lowest on eurobaromoter voting statistics about knowledge on the EU and referendums? Most people don't even know why the EU formed. They think it started off as a country club.

Maybe you have a lot of information I don't. Can you present polls taken by voters in Germany or France and many of the population giving reasons to vote no to something because 'they want to get back at the government'?
 

Mr Aphorisms

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I have been on the Site since 2004 me ol flower

examples of Ireland being a politically thoughtful country

Perhaps you would explain what you mean by that term and provide examples

It could mean whatever one wanted it to mean IMO so unless you are more specific there is no point discussing it
Already said it. EU referendums for example. Look at the Lisbon Treaty excuses for voting no. Then the paddies were told there would be jobs and they voted yes. I can sense some weird form of pride in Ireland and your request that I remove Oglach Sands, but at least I know what Sands died for and made my own mind up about him and the other nine men. I didn't allow Gay Byrne to tell me 'old I.R.A good, P.I.R.A bad'. Heard that a bit over the Christmas actually by the FF relatives.

But Lisbon Treaty. There's just one example of the lack of knowledge about anything and also, how easily lead to garbage the Irish are, regarding abortion, super armies, 'save your son from conscription' and all of that. Look at the last Treaty and the reasons why most of the working class areas voted no. Then Kieran Allen - someone I greatly respect - comes out and states that this shows working class opposition to austerity, when most in working class areas in Dublin were voting no to 'get back at the government' with many admitting they never even read the bleeding treaty itself.
 

OCicero

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But the argument you are getting at is 'sure all countries are like ours'. That maybe so, look at the States, but why do you think we are always the lowest on eurobaromoter voting statistics about knowledge on the EU and referendums? Most people don't even know why the EU formed. They think it started off as a country club.

Maybe you have a lot of information I don't. Can you present polls taken by voters in Germany or France and many of the population giving reasons to vote no to something because 'they want to get back at the government'?
So your definition of a politically adroit population is one that has a high Eurobarometer rating on their opinion of their level of EU knowledge?
 

Mr Aphorisms

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So your definition of a politically adroit population is one that has a high Eurobarometer rating on their opinion of their level of EU knowledge?
That's exactly what I said. Yes. It does say something though, no matter how much you want to ignore the truth.

But I'll ask again, maybe a black hole is in your bedroom at the moment and you're missing a few things. For example, can you give me anything from France or Germany were many of their population are voting no to 'get back at the government'?
 

RahenyFG

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According to that 'What If' radio show by Diarmaid Ferriter we would be like Albania if we didn't join the EU. That was predicted in the mid 2000s Celtic Tiger era. Now bailout era along with high taxes we are becoming Albania:cry:
 

OCicero

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That's exactly what I said. Yes. It does say something though, no matter how much you want to ignore the truth.

But I'll ask again, maybe a black hole is in your bedroom at the moment and you're missing a few things. For example, can you give me anything from France or Germany were many of their population are voting no to 'get back at the government'?
How did they do in the Eurobarometer? The answers are all there.
 
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