Wealth taxes add enormous economic complexity and collect little

Orbit v2

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That is not 'indisputable fact'. It is an ongoing con.
Don't take my word for it. Those figures (from 2012) came from the revenue commissioners. I'm sure you could find more up to date ones on their website.
How it works is that lobbyists for this sector simply come up with a 'provisional' figure for tax income from that section of the community as if they were all paying tax at the higher levels and never, ever look at how much that cohort claim back.
No, the revenue know exactly how much the declared income is, and what deductions and allowances people claim.
If tax loopholes are created in order to increase investment in an economy, then why are many of the tax loopholes irretrievably tied in with 'offshore' investment funds?
Do you have some examples? My memory of 'offshore investment funds' was that in the past many of these were used illegally to avoid tax. That is a different situation altogether.
 


Watcher2

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8 of the top 100 companies in Ireland paid 0% tax in 2017 (some got a tax rebate) - and another 5 paid as liitle as 1% tax. Two years after the ‘double Irish’ loophole was closed to new entrants, Google continued using the system to funnel billions in untaxed profits to Bermuda. In 2017 Google had $14.5billion in untaxed profits funneling through Ireland. Abbott paid zero tax on profits of €1.2 billion declared in Ireland in 2015.

Ireland has the highest rate of profits running through company books in comparison to wages paid to their Irish workers (significantly higher than any other tax haven) - and it also has the lowest effective corpo tax of these same tax havens. In 2016 pre-tax profits amounted to almost 900% of the wages paid.

I could go on - But this stuff is blatant.
If they had profits, they would have paid taxes. You wouldn't by any chance be mixing up profits and revenue, would you?
 

Politics matters

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I'd prefer we went after the rule that if you live in a country you must contribute to it.

It is the ones who pay nothing at all and still access services, drive on roads they don't contribute to, under streetlights they don't contribute to, and where there is an accident or emergency still expect to access services that everyone else pays for.

There are some cardinal rules of taxation which have been conveniently forgotten when it comes to wealthy and their imaginative accountants- that taxation should be equitable and be seen to be equitable and that is not the case with the wealthy who can manipulate their tax affairs down to the minimum.

The same goes for corporations who claim back what little tax they do actually pay, make constant demands for infrastructure paid for by the taxpayer and are effectively warehousing an employment scheme through their books so that they can make those demands.
Indeed the Bone head and the Malteser need to be shown the door.
 

making waves

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If they had profits, they would have paid taxes. You wouldn't by any chance be mixing up profits and revenue, would you?
Ah now come on - do you really think that companies using Ireland as a tax haven are not taking advantage of every single loop-hole to avoid paying tax.

Ethics go out the window when it comes to big business profits.
 

Patslatt1

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View attachment 20464

8 of the top 100 companies in Ireland paid 0% tax in 2017 (some got a tax rebate) - and another 5 paid as liitle as 1% tax. Two years after the ‘double Irish’ loophole was closed to new entrants, Google continued using the system to funnel billions in untaxed profits to Bermuda. In 2017 Google had $14.5billion in untaxed profits funneling through Ireland. Abbott paid zero tax on profits of €1.2 billion declared in Ireland in 2015.

Ireland has the highest rate of profits running through company books in comparison to wages paid to their Irish workers (significantly higher than any other tax haven) - and it also has the lowest effective corpo tax of these same tax havens. In 2016 pre-tax profits amounted to almost 900% of the wages paid.

I could go on - But this stuff is blatant.
Ireland is a very low tax country but is not considered a tax haven by international bodies since the Double Irish loophole was closed. The low tax policy has been a key driver of economic growth since the late 1950s. It was adopted to boost manufacturing as a response to the 1950s economic depression that caused the highest percentage emigration since the 19th century. Most political parties have consistently supported the tax policy, partly because of the memory of that dreadful emigration and partly because of the large numbers of international manufacturers attracted here.
As for some multinationals companies paying little tax, that may be related to tax breaks for research and development in pharma drugs and a slow phaseout of tax loopholes.
Headline tax rates in advanced EU countries are a lot higher than Ireland's but as the Irish Revenue has pointed out,after all the tax breaks, their bottom line tax rates are quite low.
Apple's tax rate case in the EU courts is an attempt by the EU Commission to interfere in Ireland's tax sovereignty by claiming the tax break was forbidden special aid. But the clever tax avoidance would have been available to others had their tax advisers thought of it, so it wasn't special aid. Some company always has to be first to invent a new tax avoidance strategy that meets legal standards. If the EU courts find against Apple, that would be a very serious infringement in Ireland's tax sovereignty that would give rise to an Irexit movement.
 

Patslatt1

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956,000 income earners pay no income tax. At all.
The high cost of living and parsimonious social welfare services in health care and child care justify no income tax as those people need an incentive to work instead of social welfare.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Don't take my word for it. Those figures (from 2012) came from the revenue commissioners. I'm sure you could find more up to date ones on their website.

No, the revenue know exactly how much the declared income is, and what deductions and allowances people claim.

Do you have some examples? My memory of 'offshore investment funds' was that in the past many of these were used illegally to avoid tax. That is a different situation altogether.
You may see figures for the tax take from High Net Worth individuals and corporates but you will never see any figures for how much they pay in a year net of tax re-claims.
 

Watcher2

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Ah now come on - do you really think that companies using Ireland as a tax haven are not taking advantage of every single loop-hole to avoid paying tax.

Ethics go out the window when it comes to big business profits.
That wasn't the question. I'll take you evasive post as an indication that you are indeed mixing up revenue with profit in order to misrepresent facts.
 

making waves

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That wasn't the question. I'll take you evasive post as an indication that you are indeed mixing up revenue with profit in order to misrepresent facts.
Cleary some people need stuff spelt out in simple detail

No - I am not confusing revenue and profit - is that clear enough for you ?

Just because it goes against your narrative about wealth and corporation tax does not make it so.
 

making waves

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956,000 income earners pay no income tax. At all.
Because they are on low pay - in a very expensive country may I add.

All the wealth is concentrated in a very small percentage of the population.
 

Watcher2

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Cleary some people need stuff spelt out in simple detail

No - I am not confusing revenue and profit - is that clear enough for you ?

Just because it goes against your narrative about wealth and corporation tax does not make it so.
I don't have a narrative. You made the statements, I merely questioned it and received and overly defensive response.

So, now that you claim you are not mixing up revenue with profits subject to tax, can you provide a link to prove that only 1% of profits were paid in tax?
 

Orbit v2

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You may see figures for the tax take from High Net Worth individuals and corporates but you will never see any figures for how much they pay in a year net of tax re-claims.
That's not true. It would be meaningless for the Revenue to publish tax figures like the ones I quoted unless they were nett of all deductions.
 

making waves

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I don't have a narrative. You made the statements, I merely questioned it and received and overly defensive response.

So, now that you claim you are not mixing up revenue with profits subject to tax, can you provide a link to prove that only 1% of profits were paid in tax?
I have done this on numerous occasions in the past - just google it - it pops up straight away
 

making waves

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Ireland is a very low tax country but is not considered a tax haven by international bodies since the Double Irish loophole was closed. The low tax policy has been a key driver of economic growth since the late 1950s. It was adopted to boost manufacturing as a response to the 1950s economic depression that caused the highest percentage emigration since the 19th century. Most political parties have consistently supported the tax policy, partly because of the memory of that dreadful emigration and partly because of the large numbers of international manufacturers attracted here.
As for some multinationals companies paying little tax, that may be related to tax breaks for research and development in pharma drugs and a slow phaseout of tax loopholes.
Headline tax rates in advanced EU countries are a lot higher than Ireland's but as the Irish Revenue has pointed out,after all the tax breaks, their bottom line tax rates are quite low.
Apple's tax rate case in the EU courts is an attempt by the EU Commission to interfere in Ireland's tax sovereignty by claiming the tax break was forbidden special aid. But the clever tax avoidance would have been available to others had their tax advisers thought of it, so it wasn't special aid. Some company always has to be first to invent a new tax avoidance strategy that meets legal standards. If the EU courts find against Apple, that would be a very serious infringement in Ireland's tax sovereignty that would give rise to an Irexit movement.
The First Programme of Economic Expansion was an attempt to neo-liberalise the Irish economy after 3 decades of protectionism. It was not designed to drive economic growth but to create an environment for a small number of Irish companies to line their pockets, because they perceived they were losing out on the post war boom. The opening up of the economy resulted in a decade of growth on the back of the boom that collapsed in 1973 - since then the Irish economy has been reverting back to norm - an economy for the small few of the wealthy elite at the expense of the mass of the population. Since the 1990s we have had bubble and burst and we now have another bubble that is heading rapidly for a burst.

Apple's tax case is not about 'tax sovereignty' - it is about protecting the interests of a tiny number of extremely wealthy MNCs - to the detriment of the Irish economy and the 99% of the population.
 

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Lumpy Talbot

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No
That's not true. It would be meaningless for the Revenue to publish tax figures like the ones I quoted unless they were nett of all deductions.
Much of what is said about tax paid by high net worth individuals and particularly about corporations is in fact meaningless. Because no account is ever taken of refund claims against tax paid.

So there is an 'official' position and a 'real world' position. We're talking about two different things.

Allegedly the Irish Corporation Tax rate is 12.5%. So name me a company trading in the Irish jurisdiction which pays 12.5% of its revenue in tax. Without claiming back most of it past a year end, or using the 'deferral' system open to mining and exploration companies which defer corporation tax indefinitely.
 

Baron von Biffo

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[...]

Allegedly the Irish Corporation Tax rate is 12.5%. So name me a company trading in the Irish jurisdiction which pays 12.5% of its revenue in tax. Without claiming back most of it past a year end, or using the 'deferral' system open to mining and exploration companies which defer corporation tax indefinitely.
Tax is paid on profit, not on revenue.
 


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