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riker1969

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Feb 11, 2008
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My own view is that SF should have been brought in and showed the realities of power but with conditions attached . One being a full audit of SF finances.
I also think that while the government will make good progress on housing it won't be enough. They won't do much on health. Thus FG will allow SF to grow and FG will face almost political wipe out next election. Varadker is a good technocrat but that's it. Thus FG don't have a radical leader to counter SF.
Thus FG should have either brought SF in or have gone into opposition.
 

Granballoon

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It's very simple really. SF were first on popular vote, second in seats. That means they got their seat at the table in a coalition, no two ways about it. FF shrugging their shoulders and going with 'nah, don't feel like that' is not how democracy works. We pay them to do a job, tough if it gets uncomfortable for them. They can quit anytime. No fan of SF myself, I believe in the recent GA their manifesto was a bit of a joke, promising a fiver for every euro there was to spend, but the people spoke. If SF botched it, that's on the people, but at least they chose it, that's what elections are about. Were it not for the pandemic people should've been on the streets about it.
 

wombat

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The last election was fought on the basis of ABFG and transfers reflected that. FG were rejected by the people but unfortunately, so was every other party. I think FF & Greens should have reached an agreement with SF rather than FG but while they were all posing and throwing shapes, Covid struck.
 

RelentlessApathy!

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No, FG made the right choice and are now in the process of consuming the corpse of FF. It was more a question for FF if they were to choose SF or not, had they done so they might have had a little more leverage in getting SF to play nice for their first time in government. But Martin has a visceral out of control seething hatred for SF to a point now where every leaders questions they easily goad him in to a reaction that makes him look the worse for it. A very human frailty in an office that expects more.

Thing about FG however, had they gone in with SF, we'd probably have a very wonky policy orientated government albeit one at it's own throat all the time. It might have been a rare animal like the Clann an Phoblachta coalition with possibly some surprising and positive outcomes for the country.
 

Barroso

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Thing about FG however, had they gone in with SF, we'd probably have a very wonky policy orientated government albeit one at it's own throat all the time.
Well you could knock me down with a feather.
You mean FG intended going into power with SF and then gnawing away at them, a little each day, until SF gave up the ghost - but SF refused to play ball, so FG have to practice on poor FF instead.
 

Barroso

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My own view is that SF should have been brought in and showed the realities of power but with conditions attached . One being a full audit of SF finances.
Would that have been as a quid pro quo for FG's finances being fully audited too? IIRC, questions about FG's finances have been swept under the carpet for the last 25 or more years.

Thus FG should have either brought SF in or have gone into opposition.
Do you really think SF would have been willing to join FG in a coalition? It's a long term policy of SF's to force FFG into a coalition so that SF can then pick up the pieces, no secret there. Not to most of us anyways.
 

JCR

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I think we can see from the north what SF are like in government. The last thing we needed right now is SF's kind of crap in the middle of a pandemic and Brexit. Seriously.

I don't see what option there was for a party like FG. Imagine trying to negotiate with SF a proper cabinet and program for government. Would you even get to talk to the people who run the party?
 

RelentlessApathy!

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Well you could knock me down with a feather.
You mean FG intended going into power with SF and then gnawing away at them, a little each day, until SF gave up the ghost - but SF refused to play ball, so FG have to practice on poor FF instead.
I have this slightly itchy feeling that FG mightn't have had as easy a time as they're having now ripping the soldiers of destiny apart 🤣

On a more serious note, an FG/SF dominant system is surely a part of FG's calculations. In a political system dependent on coalition governments, FG can safely rely on getting a majority coalition unless SF and the other left wing parties grow considerably. It might be enough to see FG through the first half of the decade by their reckoning. It's not something I'd like to see, but the political calculus in the present suggests otherwise.
 

Sidewindered

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I don't think they had any real choice really given Mehole's deranged near-psychosis levels of absolute visceral hatred of SF. I still wonder what that is all about as it is clearly something deeply personal to him but there is nothing in his background to suggest what it might be, and he's the Taoiseach FFS he needs to pull on his big boy pants now. He's incapable of that though.

SF + others simply didn't have the numbers even if they could have somehow herded all the dozen or so cats of the ostensibly-left parties, microparties and Indos together which was a big ask in itself, but even then they simply couldn't assemble a Dail Left/populist majority.

So if you were FG you could either abstain/come to a nod-and-wink confidence and supply arrangement with an SF-led Left minority government and I really can't see the Blueshirt grassroots tolerating that.

Or bite the bullet and go with FF + others and gamble that FF are such a useless shower of inbred incompetent gombeens that you can dominate them even with smaller Dail numbers, demonstrate 2-3 years of FG ministers being competent while the FFers are useless and corrupt, and then engineer pulling the plug when FF are at rock-bottom in the polls and hope to bejaysus that FG can hoover up all the centre-right votes, destroying FF once and for all.

Then it wouldn't matter if the end result of that election is an SF-led government cos a much enlarged FG with no threat on the right flank can sit back and (from an FG mindset) watch an SF government of rank amateurs and socialists make a total pigs ear of governance, 4-5 years later sweep back to power and reign unchallenged for evermore - or at least rotate power in a more standard European style system of Social Democrat vs Christian Democrat coalitions, which is just fine.

It does make a certain level of sense.
 

Seán E. Ryan

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Hogan taking a knee to the nuts from Leo might potentially set any hopes for Leo's or his party's political futures at a precarious angle. And an FG plant into the Supreme Court screeching about his shite not stinking with nobody quietening the tosspot. Leadership battle just as an election is called after whatever debacle next. For both parties. Best case scenario.

I don't think the coalition is going as FG planned.

If FF sunk into their slurry and FG survived they might well have to fight a losing battle with the Greens for the affections of SF or do their own little shuffle.

That's the fantasy at least.
 

ainm_eile

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Then it wouldn't matter if the end result of that election is an SF-led government cos a much enlarged FG with no threat on the right flank can sit back and (from an FG mindset) watch an SF government of rank amateurs and socialists make a total pigs ear of governance, 4-5 years later sweep back to power and reign unchallenged for evermore - or at least rotate power in a more standard European style system of Social Democrat vs Christian Democrat coalitions, which is just fine.
If FF sunk into their slurry and FG survived they might well have to fight a losing battle with the Greens for the affections of SF or do their own little shuffle.
The Greens will continue to eat into FG's South Dublin votes if they aren't destroyed by this coaltion. That's where the threat to FG lies.
 

Seán E. Ryan

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The Greens will continue to eat into FG's South Dublin votes if they aren't destroyed by this coaltion. That's where the threat to FG lies.
So so many variables and each of them as near a pure chaotic equation as can be. I mean I've no idea of what level of complete incompetence to expect next. I only know to expect it. If it were thermodynamics I'd liken it to heat death.
 

Sync

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No, FG made the right choice and are now in the process of consuming the corpse of FF.
This. Nothing has made the last government look better than comparing it to this one. Literally the only things working are the bits FG brought with them.

Coveney is the best front line politician the country’s had in sometime. But he’s in a position that shines a light on that. It was certainly the best thing for the country to keep him there, but FF could really have used getting one of their people that kudos.
 

Sidewindered

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This. Nothing has made the last government look better than comparing it to this one. Literally the only things working are the bits FG brought with them.

Coveney is the best front line politician the country’s had in sometime. But he’s in a position that shines a light on that. It was certainly the best thing for the country to keep him there, but FF could really have used getting one of their people that kudos.
Jaysus can you imagine having an FFer drooling and slabbering and equivocating his way around Brexit :oops:

Bad as things are for the Soldiers of Destiny right now that would be even worse. An FFer in Coveney's job right now would lead to FFers being shot on sight in the streets within weeks.

Oh hang on... :unsure:

Great idea! Barry Cowen for Foreign Minister!
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
The subject line suggests that FG had a choice. The point about the last election in the main was that it was the first time that the two major parties had been forced into coalition primarily to prevent Sinn Fein being in government.

There was no deep philosophical conference between FF and FG about a programme for government. The programme for government was to make sure Sinn Fein didn't end up in government.
 

de valera's' giddy goat

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FG are taking the role I expected SF would take were they in power. Signing off on things in cabinet but loudly disagreeing with them to the media or at the very least questioning them all, hence the tension between Varadkar and Martin. It would have been the exact same with McDonald sniping on her social media.
 

Angler

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SF should not become Tweedle Three , even as an interim tactic . The absolute fvcin neck of some shills to trot out the idea that SF should dance to the Establishment tune , becoming Interns to the tenured Professionals is symptomatic of the sense of turgid entitlement that now feels itself threatened . As to the Audit of only SF finances ,and the realities of power wow , just wow .
 

EU Insider

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Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
463
My own view is that SF should have been brought in and showed the realities of power but with conditions attached . One being a full audit of SF finances.
I also think that while the government will make good progress on housing it won't be enough. They won't do much on health. Thus FG will allow SF to grow and FG will face almost political wipe out next election. Varadker is a good technocrat but that's it. Thus FG don't have a radical leader to counter SF.
Thus FG should have either brought SF in or have gone into opposition.
It was SF's coalition to make - they didn't or couldn't do that.
 

Sidewindered

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It was SF's coalition to make - they didn't or couldn't do that.
Nonsense. Explain how SF could have led the government when
A) No Left multiparty assemblage had the numbers for a majority
B) FF are led by a nutter who has some weird absolute loathing of SF in particular and the left in general
C) FG and SF, while an interesting mix, was ruled out by FG and anyway iirc they still would have needed Others to make up the numbers

From the moment all the results were in FF/FG/Green was the only numerical option that could be a stable government

Claiming anything else is just bullshit
 

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