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What about increments?

clairec

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Apr 2, 2008
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90
The public sector paycuts seemed tough but fairly straight forward to me until I heard people start talking about their increments. Stuff like "that just wiped out the increment I got last month" or "I will be down X until I get next years increment"

For those on lower salaries at least the increment seems to be of a similar level to the pay cut. Is this generally the case for lower paid public sector workers and if so why has it not been mentioned in the media?
 


B

birthday

The media , well RTE (NUJ) anyway, have for years been reluctant to mention anything that might upset their brethern in PS. When they did from time to time mention a salary for a specific they forgot to include all the allowances that are paid to so many in PS.
 

asset test

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Oct 3, 2008
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As I see it, why should a PS worker on point 1 be denied point 2, when a colleague has reached top of the scale and is laughing.

It is probably unlawful to stop increments, but they could be frozen I suppose.
 

ivnryn

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May 20, 2007
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As I see it, why should a PS worker on point 1 be denied point 2, when a colleague has reached top of the scale and is laughing.

It is probably unlawful to stop increments, but they could be frozen I suppose.
Why would it be unlawful. They are effectively minor promotions right (though for time served and not for actual merit).
 

collina

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Oct 8, 2006
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The media , well RTE (NUJ) anyway, have for years been reluctant to mention anything that might upset their brethern in PS. When they did from time to time mention a salary for a specific they forgot to include all the allowances that are paid to so many in PS.
Yes and why should they be allowed custody of their children? After all the faultless sector-who-had-nothing-to-do-with-NAMA have been funding these children for years. The right thing to do would be for PS workers to give their off-spring to child slavery for the benefit of the we-never-stroked anybody-sector.

Furthermore, PS workers should be forbidden to take any joy in the forthcoming festive season given that it was Coca-cola who invented Santa and the PS has yet to pay-up royalties on the copy-right. Further bans on PS workers leaving their homes on Sunny bank holidays should also be considered for next summer. After-all most warm weather is attributed to climate-change which was entirely engineered by Industry.

Finally, failing all else PS workers should be denied access to the Health Service, Education, and and any form of Justice. When nurses and doctors start paying for stuff like everyone else they can have the expensive operations covered by their VHI schemes. Likewise, teachers can educate their own kids in their own homes until such a time that they take out mortgages to pay for the school buildings that the Public Sector profited outrageously from building.
 
B

birthday

As I see it, why should a PS worker on point 1 be denied point 2, when a colleague has reached top of the scale and is laughing.

It is probably unlawful to stop increments, but they could be frozen I suppose.
Fair point. Seems unfair for many if they were frozen.
 

katy brock

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Jun 20, 2008
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Why would it be unlawful. They are effectively minor promotions right (though for time served and not for actual merit).
Whether it would be unlawful or not, the Government could (and if it was honest it would), plead inability to pay.
That would get them off the hook but would lose them hundreds of thousands of votes, and lets face it, what's more important?
 
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sharper

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Finally, failing all else PS workers should be denied access to the Health Service, Education, and and any form of Justice. When nurses and doctors start paying for stuff like everyone else they can have the expensive operations covered by their VHI schemes. Likewise, teachers can educate their own kids in their own homes until such a time that they take out mortgages to pay for the school buildings that the Public Sector profited outrageously from building.
A "Public Sector Melodrama Levy" might be called for though.
 

laidback

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Theoretically increments are for merit, for good work, but the reality is they are for time served.

Freezing increments (with no back pay) for a couple of years would help the financial mess. Fairer than cutting pay. Public sector workers (my partner is one) had legitimate (I believe this is the legal phrase)expectations that their salary would at least remain the same and took on commitments on this basis.

nothing in the budget about reform of Tds expenses - but then turkeys don't vote for Xmas.
 

katy brock

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Public sector workers (my partner is one) had legitimate (I believe this is the legal phrase)expectations that their salary would at least remain the same and took on commitments on this basis.
You're right, and it is the correct phrase, but the Government have a get-out clause.
They could claim the 'national interest' overrode the interests of the public servants.
IMHO, the PS might win in the High court, but the Supreme court would side with the Government. In the 'National Interest' of course. Policy.

Don't worry, we've not got to this stage yet. Not yet.
 

brughahaha

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sharper

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I took the teacher salary scale from the ASTI website and converted it to percentage increase. Scale is here ASTI | Pay and Conditions of Secondary School Teachers in Ireland | Pay including salary scales & incremental credit | Salary Scale

First I broke it down into yearly increase

Code:
2	€1,155.00
3	€1,153.00
4	€1,161.00
5	€1,797.00
6	€1,163.00
7	€1,166.00
8	€2,929.00
9	€1,463.00
10	€1,750.00
11	€1,741.00
12	€1,753.00
13	€1,467.00
14	€1,941.00
15	€0.00
16	€0.00
17	€2,678.00
18	€0.00
18	€0.00
20	€0.00
21	€3,538.00
22	€0.00
23	€0.00
24	€0.00
25	€3,906.00
And percentage increase
Code:
2	3.54%
3	3.42%
4	3.33%
5	4.98%
6	3.07%
7	2.99%
8	7.29%
9	3.39%
10	3.92%
11	3.76%
12	3.65%
13	2.94%
14	3.78%
15	0.00%
16	0.00%
17	5.03%
18	0.00%
18	0.00%
20	0.00%
21	6.33%
22	0.00%
23	0.00%
24	0.00%
25	6.57%
That's just for teachers of course but it might give you some hint why the drops appear to hit the lower scales the most - they're the scales that will also recoup the loss the fastest.

Example: A teacher was on scale 7 in 2008, scale 8 in 2009 and scale 9 in 2010
2008 Scale 7 salary:
€40,193 basic
€1,301 H.Dip qualification
€5,177 Primary degree qualification
Total: €46671

2009 Scale 8 Salary
€43,124 basic
€1,301 H.Dip qualification
€5,177 Primary degree qualification
Total: €49602

Pension levy in April: 6.5% or €3025 bringing salary back down to €46577

2010 Scale 9 Salary
€44,588 basic
€1,301 H.Dip qualification
€5,177 Primary degree qualification
Total: €51066

Budget salary cut: €1500+1579.95 = €3079.95
New Gross Salary: €47986.45
Pension levy: 6.5%: €3119
2010 effective gross salary: €44867.45

So in this example a teacher in 2010 is down €1803.55 or 4% on their 2008 salary.

Edit: And assuming no further cuts they'll be pretty much back to their 2008 salary in 2011 and grow from there.
 
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Pabilito

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Feb 24, 2008
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5,599
As I see it, why should a PS worker on point 1 be denied point 2, when a colleague has reached top of the scale and is laughing.

It is probably unlawful to stop increments, but they could be frozen I suppose.
The same argument could be used to send everybody back to point 1. Those originally on point 1 wouldn't be laughing but they wouldn't feel hard done by either. In future people would only be promoted up the pay scale based on performance rather than service.

That's why the system of reward for service is daft.
 

geri

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Jan 31, 2009
Messages
32
I took the teacher salary scale from the ASTI website and converted it to percentage increase.So in this example a teacher in 2010 is down €1803.55 or 4% on their 2008 salary.

Edit: And assuming no further cuts they'll be pretty much back to their 2008 salary in 2011 and grow from there.
Thanks, that's really useful - funny how increments have not been mentioned in the media... at all I think?
 

sharper

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May 3, 2009
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1,027
Thanks, that's really useful - funny how increments have not been mentioned in the media... at all I think?
I haven't heard them mentioned at all, I think most members of the general public would be surprised to learn what the public service means by a "pay freeze".
 

Conor

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Apr 7, 2004
Messages
5,149
The same argument could be used to send everybody back to point 1. Those originally on point 1 wouldn't be laughing but they wouldn't feel hard done by either. In future people would only be promoted up the pay scale based on performance rather than service.

That's why the system of reward for service is daft.
It's not purely for service. To be more precise about it, it's for satisfactory service - if someone's work is unsatisfactory, their increment can be withheld pending improvement. And, going by the contract of employment, that's the only criterion for withholding increments. Legally, ability to pay doesn't come into it. They aren't at the discretion of the employer. If somebody's work is satisfactory, they get their increment.

An increment freeze would have the effect of penalising those still receiving increments, while leaving those with longer service untouched. Also, some scales are longer than others - the more senior grades, and therefore higher earners, generally have shorter scales. It'd be a very divisive move, even if it could be legally done. Interesting to see what'd happen.

They've been amply discussed in the media, Fine Gael were proposing an increment freeze earlier this year.
 

clairec

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Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
90
It'd be a very divisive move, even if it could be legally done. Interesting to see what'd happen.
Is there a consitutional protection for increments? If not any budget freezing them would make them legal.
 

sharper

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Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
1,027
It's not purely for service. To be more precise about it, it's for satisfactory service - if someone's work is unsatisfactory, their increment can be withheld pending improvement.
In theory sure.

In practice;
Pay day bonanza for civil servants - Times Online
ALMOST every civil servant in Ireland received a pay increase this year following performance assessment reviews carried out by their managers.

Out of 19,014 assessments supplied to The Sunday Times, just 18, or 0.094% of the total, were rated as “unacceptable”.

These were the only government employees denied an annual pay rise worth between €1,000 and €3,000 depending on a person’s position within the civil service and years of service.
 

katy brock

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Jun 20, 2008
Messages
201
I haven't heard them mentioned at all, I think most members of the general public would be surprised to learn what the public service means by a "pay freeze".
True enough. The Minister for Finance seems a bit baffled. What chance does 'Joe Sixpack' have?
Why on earth does Lenihan believe everything his subordinates tell him?
If he had to run a business himself he'd be bankrupt in a matter of weeks!

I nicked this from a TV show, but garlic chomper might do well to read it.

ABC.

A : Assume nothing.

B : Believe nobody.

C: Check everything.

Lenihan's father was a government minister and Brian spent his formative years arsing around in Belvedere, Trinity College and somewhere called 'Sidney Sussex College' in England.

As some legal bod might say, he has never even met anybody vaguely resembling 'the man on the Clapham omnibus'!
And he is Minster for Finance, in a Government led by 'The Republican Party'!

Let's face it. If he was English, he would have gone to Eton and would be a Tory going through the motions of appearing intelligent, knowing that the English electorate would elect just about anybody who wasn't Labour at the moment.

Roll on the real budget!
 


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