What actually constitutes sexual abuse or aggression?

Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
39,553
I'm not asking in an air of faux innocence, or in any way trying to cast a judgment on any of the rush of recent allegations regarding sexual abuse and assault. Nor am I trying to justify any of the alleged infractions.

The question I have, though, is this: where is the actual line between what might be a welcomed approach and one which constitutes criminality? I'm speaking in terms of the rules of sexual engagement.

Now, I've been in general terms a fairly timid sort of individual when it comes to the "s" word, but I've had more than a fair share of enjoyable encounters. My habit has been (when I was in that position) to sit back and to be sure that imagined overtures were real.

Yet there still comes a time when a hand goes on a knee, or some form of initial approach is made physically. I'm not in that position any more whereby I am seeking encounters (I'm way too old and committed for that), and I wonder how I'd cope now. I'm sort of old school in my way, so I'd probably be OK. But what are the current rules?
 


Quebecoise

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Messages
361
I think most Irishmen can read the signs. However there is a small delusional cotiere of men who believe that "If a woman is nice to me that must mean she fancies me." I've met a couple of blokes like that in my time, and I think it just comes down to a complete lack of self-awareness on their part. They read the signs in their own head, or rather they project their own sexual desire on to others rather being able to properly size-up a situation. I think it comes down to the egoism of "She must fancy me."
 

Noble Guardian

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
841
Twitter
@NobleGuardianIE
Never say or do anything to a woman you wouldn't like being said or done to you by a man, in prison.
 

Marcos the black

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
18,458
Whatever you'd do with the gender you're not attracted to is not sexual harassment, anything else that you're not sure about is.
So for example I'm male, and straight. I wouldn't put my hand on another fellas knee if I'm talking with him, or I wouldn't pinch his bottom, or put my hand on the small of his back etc... You know, common sense kinda stuff..
It's a general rule of thumb but I find it works for me.. :)
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
53,658
I think Irish people are more logical than the formerly Puritan societies of the UK and America on this. This is reflected in more responsible media coverage that doesn't equate accusation with guilt.

I think the UK is still experiencing moral panic following the Jimmy Saville revelations, and that innocent people are being dragged into the vortex of public hysteria, including the acquitted Coronation street stars. Some of it may also relate to the growth of anti-sex feminism that started during the Cameron government. By shaming mere flirtation as "sexual harassment", the anti-sex movement hoped to turn back the clock to before the 1960s, except this time the men will be sexually repressed. In a sense this is the revenge of a minority of bitter but powerful women for the past second class treatment of women. It's also the revenge of Religious Right women for what they call the permissive society. Similar alliance in Ireland between feminists and the Church in banning prostitution.

It's possible multiculturalism also plays a role. Suppressing sex by Christians and native westerners would reduce the birth rate, allowing the growth of Islam.

I think gay men are not as touchy about this. I have sometimes misread signals but the rule I follow is no touching without prior verbal consent. But I think most people are more nuanced about this and take a "let nature take its course" position, which is where the misunderstandings arise.
 
Last edited:

fat finger

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2016
Messages
2,178
I'm not asking in an air of faux innocence, or in any way trying to cast a judgment on any of the rush of recent allegations regarding sexual abuse and assault. Nor am I trying to justify any of the alleged infractions.

The question I have, though, is this: where is the actual line between what might be a welcomed approach and one which constitutes criminality? I'm speaking in terms of the rules of sexual engagement.

Now, I've been in general terms a fairly timid sort of individual when it comes to the "s" word, but I've had more than a fair share of enjoyable encounters. My habit has been (when I was in that position) to sit back and to be sure that imagined overtures were real.

Yet there still comes a time when a hand goes on a knee, or some form of initial approach is made physically. I'm not in that position any more whereby I am seeking encounters (I'm way too old and committed for that), and I wonder how I'd cope now. I'm sort of old school in my way, so I'd probably be OK. But what are the current rules?

A starting point is to understand how warped all media reporting of this matter has become, warped beyond comprehension. Note as example the often used term 'unwanted advances', reminding us how media bosses as a rule assume that all or most consumers of their product are females. Advances are just that. Advances. When the male makes the advance, in most cases it is because he wants to make it. It is therefore, from the male's perspective, a 'wanted advance'. Yet it is only reported based on how the female responded, obvious reporting bias, as if men must always know how a woman will respond before making a pass, it reminds us of one of those grotesque romcom films where the hero actually asks the woman can he kiss her before going ahead and doing so, a gross perversion of the cut and thrust of real romance in the real world, God help us if our sons are growing up believing they have to ask a woman's permission before going ahead and kissing her, but God help us also if they persist in kissing the woman after she has made it clear to him that she's not interested
 
Last edited:

MsDaisyC

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2017
Messages
3,936
I can only speak from personal experience, but stay out of personal space until invited in because it can be creepy and intimidating to have someone be too close to you, rather than flattering. If she gives you the brush off, it's not personal, she's just not into you so don't start getting weird over it. She's not a stuck up b!itch or a tease, or a $lut.

No means no, not maybe later, or try again. Yes means yes, but if she wants to stop at any point, respect that and stop whatever it is you're doing even if it means withdrawing before you've finished. If she's too out of it to consent, take it as a no... and seriously lads, are you that desperate for your go that you'd get up on someone completely blotto? It doesn't say much about you if she has to be unconscious!

Compliments are nice when you know somebody. I'd like to know your name before you praise my attributes, otherwise it can be a bit sleazy. Nobody takes being whistled or shouted at as a compliment. No woman ever said about the love of her life "well it was when he shouted "nice tits" as I was waiting to cross the road that I fell for him."

Telling us you're one of the nice guys doesn't make it so, particularly when you're angrily shouting it at us as we move swiftly away from you.

If you do "read the signals" wrong, then apologise and back off. A hand on the knee in a pub or club mightn't be welcome but, it's not a criminal offence. Work is not a social situation. There is no need for you to touch a work colleague on the knee, in fact, beyond a handshake or at the very most, a light hand on the shoulder as you squeeze past them in a tight spot, there's no need to touch a work colleague in work at all!
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
53,658
I can only speak from personal experience, but stay out of personal space until invited in because it can be creepy and intimidating to have someone be too close to you, rather than flattering. If she gives you the brush off, it's not personal, she's just not into you so don't start getting weird over it. She's not a stuck up b!itch or a tease, or a $lut.

No means no, not maybe later, or try again. Yes means yes, but if she wants to stop at any point, respect that and stop whatever it is you're doing even if it means withdrawing before you've finished. If she's too out of it to consent, take it as a no... and seriously lads, are you that desperate for your go that you'd get up on someone completely blotto? It doesn't say much about you if she has to be unconscious!

Compliments are nice when you know somebody. I'd like to know your name before you praise my attributes, otherwise it can be a bit sleazy. Nobody takes being whistled or shouted at as a compliment. No woman ever said about the love of her life "well it was when he shouted "nice tits" as I was waiting to cross the road that I fell for him."

Telling us you're one of the nice guys doesn't make it so, particularly when you're angrily shouting it at us as we move swiftly away from you.

If you do "read the signals" wrong, then apologise and back off. A hand on the knee in a pub or club mightn't be welcome but, it's not a criminal offence. Work is not a social situation. There is no need for you to touch a work colleague on the knee, in fact, beyond a handshake or at the very most, a light hand on the shoulder as you squeeze past them in a tight spot, there's no need to touch a work colleague in work at all!
One third of married couples in the UK met at work.
 

MsDaisyC

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2017
Messages
3,936
One third of married couples in the UK met at work.
And how many of them were subject to unwanted advances by their husband/wife before tying the knot? I know people who've met at work, but the relationship developed outside it.
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
53,658
And how many of them were subject to unwanted advances by their husband/wife before tying the knot? I know people who've met at work, but the relationship developed outside it.
But if they hadn't met in the first place the relationship wouldn't have happened. We should not suppress consensual office romances, and we shouldn't try to force men to be mindreaders nor open the doors for jealous people who might have been rejected to maliciously claim sexual harassment. And we shouldn't pretend it's only men who sexually harass.
 

stopdoingstuff

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
22,399
And how many of them were subject to unwanted advances by their husband/wife before tying the knot? I know people who've met at work, but the relationship developed outside it.
The trouble is that you don't know it's unwanted until told and by that stage one is in a HR danger zone. Don't **it where you eat has always been one of my rules.
 

JCR

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
6,241
A starting point is to understand how warped all media reporting of this matter has become, warped beyond comprehension. Note as example the often used term 'unwanted advances', reminding us how media bosses as a rule assume that all or most consumers of their product are females. Advances are just that. Advances. When the male makes the advance, in most cases it is because he wants to make it. It is therefore, from the male's perspective, a 'wanted advance'. Yet it is only reported based on how the female responded, obvious reporting bias, as if men must always know how a woman will respond before making a pass, it reminds us of one of those grotesque romcom films where the hero actually asks the woman can he kiss her before going ahead and doing so, a gross perversion of the cut and thrust of real romance in the real world, God help us if our sons are growing up believing they have to ask a woman's permission before going ahead and kissing her, but God help us also if they persist in kissing the woman after she has made it clear to him that she's not interested
So to sum up, God help us all.
 

Lonewolfe

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2011
Messages
17,029
I'm not asking in an air of faux innocence, or in any way trying to cast a judgment on any of the rush of recent allegations regarding sexual abuse and assault. Nor am I trying to justify any of the alleged infractions.

The question I have, though, is this: where is the actual line between what might be a welcomed approach and one which constitutes criminality? I'm speaking in terms of the rules of sexual engagement.

Now, I've been in general terms a fairly timid sort of individual when it comes to the "s" word, but I've had more than a fair share of enjoyable encounters. My habit has been (when I was in that position) to sit back and to be sure that imagined overtures were real.

Yet there still comes a time when a hand goes on a knee, or some form of initial approach is made physically. I'm not in that position any more whereby I am seeking encounters (I'm way too old and committed for that), and I wonder how I'd cope now. I'm sort of old school in my way, so I'd probably be OK. But what are the current rules?
You could stop ************************ing on the chat forum for starters;)
 

amsterdemmetje

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
16,365
I can only speak from personal experience, but stay out of personal space until invited in because it can be creepy and intimidating to have someone be too close to you, rather than flattering. If she gives you the brush off, it's not personal, she's just not into you so don't start getting weird over it. She's not a stuck up b!itch or a tease, or a $lut.

No means no, not maybe later, or try again. Yes means yes, but if she wants to stop at any point, respect that and stop whatever it is you're doing even if it means withdrawing before you've finished. If she's too out of it to consent, take it as a no... and seriously lads, are you that desperate for your go that you'd get up on someone completely blotto? It doesn't say much about you if she has to be unconscious!

Compliments are nice when you know somebody. I'd like to know your name before you praise my attributes, otherwise it can be a bit sleazy. Nobody takes being whistled or shouted at as a compliment. No woman ever said about the love of her life "well it was when he shouted "nice tits" as I was waiting to cross the road that I fell for him."

Telling us you're one of the nice guys doesn't make it so, particularly when you're angrily shouting it at us as we move swiftly away from you.

If you do "read the signals" wrong, then apologise and back off. A hand on the knee in a pub or club mightn't be welcome but, it's not a criminal offence. Work is not a social situation. There is no need for you to touch a work colleague on the knee, in fact, beyond a handshake or at the very most, a light hand on the shoulder as you squeeze past them in a tight spot, there's no need to touch a work colleague in work at all!
Id agree with all of that but dont think for a moment that the same doesn't happen to some men ,it does. I have witnessed it manys a time while doing pub and club security. While not on the scale of men harassing or touching up women i've seen a fair share of women down the years indulging in behavior unbecoming of the fairer sex. petunia
 

Clanrickard

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
33,175
Ask yourself the question............would you do it to a woman with the power to fire you?
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
53,658
From what Ive seen of the UK, pretty much anything including non sexual stuff can get a person accused of sexual.harassment. I heard Catherine Zappone on TWIP last night saying 'all sexual harassment is a form of violence'. That's a very far reaching term and I disagree. There are grey areas and honest mistakes.

There's a Demi Moore story today on News Republic regarding a video of her kissing a 15 year old decades ago. I have a feeling the feminists won't be accusing her
 

shoneen

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
1,804
Whatever you'd do with the gender you're not attracted to is not sexual harassment, anything else that you're not sure about is.
So for example I'm male, and straight. I wouldn't put my hand on another fellas knee if I'm talking with him, or I wouldn't pinch his bottom, or put my hand on the small of his back etc... You know, common sense kinda stuff..
It's a general rule of thumb but I find it works for me.. :)
I frequently find myself farting in male company accompanied by a "wha-hay" for emphasis or words to that effect. Turns out there are some women out there who don't appreciate that kind of behaviour. I'll never understand them. :-(
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top