What did SF achieve?

rockofcashel

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El Matador said:
rockofcashel said:
[quote="El Matador":w8dnmpnc]
rockofcashel said:
badinage said:
st333ve said:
[quote="dubsthcentralboy":w8dnmpnc]For decades Sinn Féin supported a murderour campaign by the self-styled Irish Repubican Army (IRA) which resulted in the death of hundreds of civilians. It was, according to SF lore, part of the struggle for the freedom of Ireland.

Now, after 1,000s of lives lost what's been achieved?

A United Ireland, no they've decided to let that be,
An end to British occupation of a part of Ireland, ignored that too,
British soldiers in Ireland, they're still here
A British police force? - Well, SF administer it now...
A British parliament in Stormont, well, they're involved in administering that too.


What did the 'armed struggle' achieve? Why were Sinn Féin opposed to running British institutions in Ireland for decades but now they're happy to do so?
Have you any idea what ni was like before the troubles?
not as bad as it was while the PIRA campaign was ongoing.
Compare and contrast the position of a working class Republican Catholic in 1994 and a Republican working class Catholic in 1968

I believe you'll see a discernible difference

While you might argue that this was not directly related to the IRA campaign (i.e. no politician is going to admit to changing policy directly as a result of pressure brought about by an armed campaign), there is no doubt that the IRA campaign sped up the pace of change in social policy in the 6 counties. You could even posit the collapsing of the Unionist dominated Stormont regime post 1968-72
I think you'll find that the civil rights movement was the catalyst for change, with the new dispensation delivering the fall of Stormont and providing powersharing through the Sunningdale Agreement (which the provos and the Paisleyites were opposed to at the time- even then they had a lot in common)
Aye, the civil rights movement was the catalyst for change all right.. but what change the the Bloody Sunday Civil Rights march bring ?[/quote:w8dnmpnc]

I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. Am I to assume from your dismissal of the impact of the Civil Rights Movement that you accept that the provisional movement didn't think it was worthwhile?[/quote:w8dnmpnc]

where did I dismiss the Civil Rights movement ?

I said straight up, it was a catalyst.. which it was. However, it achieved practically nothing substantial beyond politicising the young people of the Catholic communities in the 6 counties, and knocked heads at places like Burntollet. Then it ended up causing innocent people to be gunned down in Derry.

After that, the IRA campaign wrung whatever changes for the Catholic community that was wrung from the British.

You can pontificate all you like, and slap yourself on the back all you like.. but Mao's assertion that power comes from the barrel of a gun is exactly how the British Government always dealt with its colonies. (bar Hong Kong, and they'll admit to beign pissed off they were stupid enough to sign a lease on that)
 


El Matador

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rockofcashel said:
El Matador said:
rockofcashel said:
[quote="El Matador":2j27d4gx]
rockofcashel said:
badinage said:
[quote="st333ve":2j27d4gx][quote="dubsthcentralboy":2j27d4gx]For decades Sinn Féin supported a murderour campaign by the self-styled Irish Repubican Army (IRA) which resulted in the death of hundreds of civilians. It was, according to SF lore, part of the struggle for the freedom of Ireland.

Now, after 1,000s of lives lost what's been achieved?

A United Ireland, no they've decided to let that be,
An end to British occupation of a part of Ireland, ignored that too,
British soldiers in Ireland, they're still here
A British police force? - Well, SF administer it now...
A British parliament in Stormont, well, they're involved in administering that too.


What did the 'armed struggle' achieve? Why were Sinn Féin opposed to running British institutions in Ireland for decades but now they're happy to do so?
Have you any idea what ni was like before the troubles?
not as bad as it was while the PIRA campaign was ongoing.
Compare and contrast the position of a working class Republican Catholic in 1994 and a Republican working class Catholic in 1968

I believe you'll see a discernible difference

While you might argue that this was not directly related to the IRA campaign (i.e. no politician is going to admit to changing policy directly as a result of pressure brought about by an armed campaign), there is no doubt that the IRA campaign sped up the pace of change in social policy in the 6 counties. You could even posit the collapsing of the Unionist dominated Stormont regime post 1968-72
I think you'll find that the civil rights movement was the catalyst for change, with the new dispensation delivering the fall of Stormont and providing powersharing through the Sunningdale Agreement (which the provos and the Paisleyites were opposed to at the time- even then they had a lot in common)
Aye, the civil rights movement was the catalyst for change all right.. but what change the the Bloody Sunday Civil Rights march bring ?[/quote:2j27d4gx]

I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. Am I to assume from your dismissal of the impact of the Civil Rights Movement that you accept that the provisional movement didn't think it was worthwhile?[/quote:2j27d4gx]

where did I dismiss the Civil Rights movement ?

I said straight up, it was a catalyst.. which it was. However, it achieved practically nothing substantial beyond politicising the young people of the Catholic communities in the 6 counties, and knocked heads at places like Burntollet. Then it ended up causing innocent people to be gunned down in Derry.

After that, the IRA campaign wrung whatever changes for the Catholic community that was wrung from the British.

You can pontificate all you like, and slap yourself on the back all you like.. but Mao's assertion that power comes from the barrel of a gun is exactly how the British Government always dealt with its colonies. (bar Hong Kong, and they'll admit to beign pissed off they were stupid enough to sign a lease on that)[/quote:2j27d4gx]

What was the provisional movement's position on it (the Civil Rights Movement) at the time then? I'm confused. It seems to me that you're saying that people shouldn't have bothered with peaceful protest and should've instead gone directly to taking up arms against the British.
 

rockofcashel

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El Matador said:
What was the provisional movement's position on it (the Civil Rights Movement) at the time then? I'm confused. It seems to me that you're saying that people shouldn't have bothered with peaceful protest and should've instead gone directly to taking up arms against the British.
T'was, as it always was, the only language they understood. Their response to the Civil Rights movement proved that. T'was worth a try yes, but eventually the armed campaign was more effective. Or are you simply to blind as to want to acknowledge that ?
 

Cookie68

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El Matador said:
Of course I don't acknowledge that- the armed campaign achieved nothing. It's not because I'm blind that I say that- I'm not- I've seen first hand the damage and pointlessness of the provos' (and others') use of violence.
ROC speaks from experience too.

You see it was tough down there in Cashel throughout the troubles.

It's even tougher now mind you ;)
 

freedomlover

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Tomáis Joad said:
Not being fianna fail.
Thousands of deaths just to demonstrate SF aren't FF seems a bit excessive.

Other parties achieve that effect without recourse to killing anyone.
 

Halo

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DavidMurphyperson said:
Tomáis Joad said:
actually the Republican movement finds it roots even before 1798. So while its impossible to put a date on the birth of any ideology or movement it is not really true to say anarchism or communism are older.
The sort of "Republicanism" that Sinn Fein support was founded in the 70's based on sectarianism, intimidation and criminality, don't tarnish the earlier movements by relating them to the atrocities that the IRA committed in recent years
Yawn.
 

The Collective.

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Aindriu said:
14 un-necessary deaths at the hands of ill-disciplined young soldiers.
Jesus thats very cold. I would have gonewith "14 murders by some war criminals".
 

Halo

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The Collective. said:
Aindriu said:
14 un-necessary deaths at the hands of ill-disciplined young soldiers.
Jesus thats very cold. I would have gonewith "14 murders by some war criminals".
Thats fianna fail for ye.
 

macedo

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st333ve said:
Have you any idea what ni was like before the troubles?
Have you any idea what the south was like in the 50's and 60's? If, in the absence of the PIRA, social change in the north had happened at half the pace of change in the south, we'd probably be closer to a united Ireland than we are now. And dinosaurs like Paisley would be historical curiosities.
 

PatMcL

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El Matador said:
I think you better read what I said- the civil rights movement was the catalyst for change, with the new dispensation delivering the fall of Stormont. The fact that people stood up against oppression and were no longer willing to accept the hegemony of the elective unionist dictatorship, in combination with the embarassment caused to the British government of innocent people being beaten and shot at by state forces, ultimately caused the prorogation of the Northern Ireland parliament.
I read what you had written and re-reading it doesn't change history. The catalyst for the collapse of Stormont was the campaign by the IRA.

No one is dismissing the existence of the CRA and the part it played in the highlighting British and Unionist sectarianism. But the widespread extent of the campaign by IRA shocked the British Government. Faulkner was dismissed by Heath as an idiot. His call for the RUC to be re-armed in the face of that IRA campaign was the straw that broke the camels back.
 

PatMcL

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El Matador said:
BTW, what do you have to say about the provisional movement's opposition to the key tenets of the CRM's campaign- e.g. engaging in elections, using peaceful means, etc?

Rent and Rates strikes?
 

DOD

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The Collective. said:
Sinn Fien actions nowadays, just prove that, Fine Gael are the one true republican party. Consistant in thier views.

.
Are you on drugs?
 

bagel

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rockofcashel said:
Compare and contrast the position of a working class Republican Catholic in 1994 and a Republican working class Catholic in 1968
I believe you'll see a discernible difference

.....there is no doubt that the IRA campaign sped up the pace of change in social policy in the 6 counties.
please provide a link for the former;

please provide evidence of the latter;
 

FutureTaoiseach

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We're talking about the Provos here of course. They acheived nothing but to delay the day when partition will end, and the same is true of the dissident groups like the RIRA/INLA/CIRA as well as the OIRA.
 

rockofcashel

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bagel said:
rockofcashel said:
Compare and contrast the position of a working class Republican Catholic in 1994 and a Republican working class Catholic in 1968
I believe you'll see a discernible difference

.....there is no doubt that the IRA campaign sped up the pace of change in social policy in the 6 counties.
please provide a link for the former;

please provide evidence of the latter;


Only job available in 1968: Apprenctice Butcher



Current employment 2008: Deputy First Minister


The IRA didn't open up employment opportunities for working class Republicans ?
 

badinage

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rockofcashel said:
El Matador said:
rockofcashel said:
Aye, the civil rights movement was the catalyst for change all right.. but what change the the Bloody Sunday Civil Rights march bring ?
I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. Am I to assume from your dismissal of the impact of the Civil Rights Movement that you accept that the provisional movement didn't think it was worthwhile?
where did I dismiss the Civil Rights movement ?

I said straight up, it was a catalyst.. which it was. However, it achieved practically nothing substantial beyond politicising the young people of the Catholic communities in the 6 counties, and knocked heads at places like Burntollet. Then it ended up causing innocent people to be gunned down in Derry.

After that, the IRA campaign wrung whatever changes for the Catholic community that was wrung from the British.

You can pontificate all you like, and slap yourself on the back all you like.. but Mao's assertion that power comes from the barrel of a gun is exactly how the British Government always dealt with its colonies. (bar Hong Kong, and they'll admit to beign pissed off they were stupid enough to sign a lease on that)
That's a theory, nothing more. An equally valid theory is that the PIRA slowed the progress of working class nationalists by making the British believe any efforts to improve their lot would be seen as concessions to terrorism, and that the same progress could have been achieved in a shorter period without the PIRA campaign. Certainly, I'd hope you'd agree, considering the eventual GFA outcome, that anything the PIRA did after the mid-70s only worsened the relationship between two communities who would eventually have to work together and made a police force which SF would eventually encourage nationalists to join seem even more evil in their eyes
 

badinage

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rockofcashel said:


Only job available in 1968: Apprenctice Butcher



Current employment 2008: Deputy First Minister
yes and someone like Paisley wouldn't have made First Minister in 1968 - is your point the polarisation of politics, to the extent that middle class moderates have taken a back seat to working class extremists who clearly only represent their own tribe?
 


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