What do people in the ROI generally think of Churchill?



Lumpy Talbot

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No later he was angry with De Valera for destroying his dream of an Ireland as a genuine part of the British part of the British Empire but he was fascinated by him and respected him, Collins he got on with because they both had incredibly dark souls: De Valera of course despised Churchill.
The issue of soul-darkness does not trouble the history books.
 

GDPR

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Young Winston in action with the 2RDF against the dastardly Boers:

2nd Royal Dublin Fusiliers, Chiveley armoured train ambush, Natal 15 November 1899

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im--izlKL8g
James Craig (the legitimacy of his title is dubious) was involved in really horrific war crimes against the Boer folk in the Second Boer War. I adore St Stephen's Green in Dublin but I really wish that "Traitor's Arch" there would suffer the same fate as Nelson did on O'Connell Street.
 

GDPR

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The issue of soul-darkness does not trouble the history books.
Maybe but the fact that you admire the blood thirsty and when push came to shove ruthlessly power hungry thug over the principled but pragmatic Statesman says something about the darkness in your own soul very possibly.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Maybe but the fact that you admire the blood thirsty and when push came to shove ruthlessly power hungry thug over the principled but pragmatic Statesman says something about the darkness in your own soul very possibly.
Mm. I remember hearing of De Valera's principles- indeed they could be detected by anyone in the Irish Press shares scandal. Some might say he set the scene for Fianna Fail with that one.
 

GDPR

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Mm. I remember hearing of De Valera's principles- indeed they could be detected by anyone in the Irish Press shares scandal. Some might say he set the scene for Fianna Fail with that one.
LOL the man was trying to get a media going reflective of the interests and feelings of ordinary people as opposed to Oligarchs. Cry me a river. Collins carried out the Tan War in a much more vicious fashion than the Provies would have dreamed of particularly in Ulster and than in a more savage fashion turned on his own. A man cut from the cloth of Winston Churchill and Johnny Adair if ever there was one.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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LOL the man was trying to get a media going reflective of the interests and feelings of ordinary people as opposed to Oligarchs. Cry me a river. Collins carried out the Tan War in a much more vicious fashion than the Provies would have dreamed of particularly in Ulster and than in a more savage fashion turned on his own. A man cut from the cloth of Winston Churchill and Johnny Adair if ever there was one.
It is pretty hard to fight a war politely. And De Valera was distinctly shaky on the military action side of things. If it hadn't been for Collins and his efficiency in carrying out guerilla warfare it might have been just another movement snuffed out. Collins was particularly good at the military intelligence side of things.

De Valera was most useful raising funds in the states.
 

Windowshopper

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I'd imagine most people in Ireland would know as the WWII hero rather than his role during the Anglo-Irish War and other political controversies. He was the consummate politician in both a good and bad sense.His attitude towards colonials such as the Irish or Indians could could be monstrous. Despite his faults all he was perhaps the only person that could get Britain through the dark period of WWII, and that is his legacy.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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LOL the man was trying to get a media going reflective of the interests and feelings of ordinary people as opposed to Oligarchs. Cry me a river. Collins carried out the Tan War in a much more vicious fashion than the Provies would have dreamed of particularly in Ulster and than in a more savage fashion turned on his own. A man cut from the cloth of Winston Churchill and Johnny Adair if ever there was one.
'Trying to get a media going' by lining his own pocket?
 

gerhard dengler

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Im not sure about that. He had a definite of Ulster and particularly of the Prods but I did have a genuine affection for the South which he spent a good deal of time in growing up. He also supported Home Rule strongly- he had basically the Blue Shirt dream of a 32 county self governing Ireland as part of the British Empire. His father on the other hand who he despised is to blame in a significant part for him turning out such a psycho is one of the people principally responsible for the mess Northern Ireland is in today- he was a real piece of work.
Churchill only "liked" those Irish who were Unionists.

As I said Churchill was no friend to Ireland, or the Irish.
 

Windowshopper

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Collins and Churchill met when the latter gave a dinner party for him during the Treaty negotiations. There was an interesting exchange when Collins pulled out one of the Wanted posters featuring himself which had been posted up around Dublin offering a £50 reward for information leading to the capture of one Michael Collins.

Churchill begged to be excused and rooted about in a bureau, returning with a Wanted poster the Boers had posted around in South Africa for the recapture of Winston Churchill offering a reward of £5.

There were some lighthearted jokes about the effect of inflation.

When Churchill heard of the death of Collins he wrote a personal letter to Collins' family expressing regret and saying Ireland had 'lost a great leader'.

Churchill's dislike of De Valera was well known. My theory is that Churchill knew De Valera was a double agent- Churchill in line with the officer class of the time had a deep dislike of spies and agents. A gentleman could like and admire an enemy officer but not a spy.

It would explain also De Valera's rather remarkable escape from a supposed high security prison. But that is my theory and for another day.
Dev was a spy conspiracy oh FFS.
 

gerhard dengler

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Dev was a spy conspiracy oh FFS.
My former neighbour, his mother was involved in the War of Independence. When I say involved it is clear that she had access to the very highest levels of the I.R.A.

It wasn't until my former neighbour took possession of his family's heirlooms that he, or I, realised how connected this woman was.

There were many papers and documents that she left as part of her legacy. Some of the papers will open up perhaps many new insights in to War of Independence and the Treaty negotiations. The papers and photographs which he possesses are literally gold dust.

One item was really interesting. It is a photograph of her with Collins and Boland. Nothing unusual in that, because she had several dozens photographs with them and many others. Except this photograph is taken in Douglas in the Isle of Man during 1920.
What were a whole bunch of Irish patriots doing in Douglas in the Isle of Man? It would appear that some sort of negotiations or contacts were being conducted with the British, according to one expert who reviewed all of the papers.

My former neighbour is considering writing a book about his mothers life. I've helped him prepare the draft.
 

Windowshopper

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My former neighbour, his mother was involved in the War of Independence. When I say involved it is clear that she had access to the very highest levels of the I.R.A.

It wasn't until my former neighbour took possession of his family's heirlooms that he, or I, realised how connected this woman was.

There were many papers and documents that she left as part of her legacy. Some of the papers will open up perhaps many new insights in to War of Independence and the Treaty negotiations. The papers and photographs which he possesses are literally gold dust.

One item was really interesting. It is a photograph of her with Collins and Boland. Nothing unusual in that, because she had several dozens photographs with them and many others. Except this photograph is taken in Douglas in the Isle of Man during 1920.
What were a whole bunch of Irish patriots doing in Douglas in the Isle of Man? It would appear that some sort of negotiations or contacts were being conducted with the British, according to one expert who reviewed all of the papers.

My former neighbour is considering writing a book about his mothers life. I've helped him prepare the draft.
Please ask your friend to consider giving the papers to an archive.
 

GDPR

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What do people in the ROI generally think about him? The only people I have discussed him with from here have yourself and rashers on the net as well as a retired Officier of the ROI Defense Force who has given my better half and I a lot of laughs and giggles on the subject; this is the thing about Churchill that he was so pompously ridiculous in his evil a lot of the time that it is hard not to find him humorous.

Yes I firmly believe that Hitlerite regime had to be crushed but the way he went about was at times nothing more than satanic. If it had not been for World War II he would remembered in British history for his murder of Welsh miners and his drunken arrogance in World I which led to the deaths of multiudes of Commonwealth soldiers.
WWII, Right man, right time, right place.


Generally, wrong man, any time, any place.
 

hiding behind a poster

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Churchill was no friend of Ireland or the Irish.

That's about as charitable as I can be as regards the man.
That's not really true. He had a great romantic attraction to the Empire that he couldn't shake off, even after WW2. He didn't want Ireland to leave the Empire, which doesn't mean he didn't like Ireland or the Irish.
 

gerhard dengler

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Please ask your friend to consider giving the papers to an archive.
He's told me that he will handover practically all of her possessions connected to 1916-1922 period, to the state.

But first he wants to get his mothers life story published. And from what he tells me there is a lot of interest from publishers, so hopefully his book will get to see the light of day.

Without disclosing too many more details, my friend's mother underwent an operation in 1940's. Her operation didn't go well and he tells me that she was not the same woman as she was before (she suffered terrible depression, emotional problems and she had a very difficult time coping with raising her family) according to the people who knew her.
So she didn't communicate a lot about her earlier life to her children as a result.

It was only when she died that my friend realised just how connected his mother was with the likes of Collins, Dev, Boland, Brugha.
 

gerhard dengler

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That's not really true. He had a great romantic attraction to the Empire that he couldn't shake off, even after WW2. He didn't want Ireland to leave the Empire, which doesn't mean he didn't like Ireland or the Irish.
And the Black and Tans were over here doing charity work too, right? :roll:
 

Windowshopper

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He's told me that he will handover practically all of her possessions connected to 1916-1922 period, to the state.

But first he wants to get his mothers life story published. And from what he tells me there is a lot of interest from publishers, so hopefully his book will get to see the light of day.

Without disclosing too many more details, my friend's mother underwent an operation in 1940's. Her operation didn't go well and he tells me that she was not the same woman as she was before (she suffered terrible depression, emotional problems and she had a very difficult time coping with raising her family) according to the people who knew her.
So she didn't communicate a lot about her earlier life to her children as a result.

It was only when she died that my friend realised just how connected his mother was with the likes of Collins, Dev, Boland, Brugha.
I am glad to here that. It might do no harm for him to check out the various state archives, and see which one is a good fit with regard to collection policy, or to just to contact them with regard to advice on how best to store the material while its still in his possession.
 
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