What do the Irish really think on unification?

EnglishObserver

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With regard to the Republic of Ireland:








Furthermore, it is worth noting that:



As regards Northern Ireland:



Tremendous detail - much obliged.
 


Lumpy Talbot

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No
Much rather be reunified with Bermuda, to be honest, and I suspect I'd not be alone in that.

But anyone who has ever glimpsed a map of the Island of Ireland could probably grasp the sense in ambitions to re-unify.
 

tsarbomb

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Varadkar also said we'd need a new constitution, something I was attempting to discuss elsewhere before tripping over a narrow mind. Perhaps I'll have better luck here.

Even without the context of a united Ireland the thought of replacing the constitution fills me with dread.

As an atheist I'm a second-class citizen under our constitution but I can still recognise the beauty of it.

De Valera chose well when he chose John Hearne and the others of the Constitutional Committee. Hearne in particular was an educated and erudite public servant. He had the background and training to understand the import of his duty and, more than just the the ability to discharge it, he had the old-fashioned patriotism and character to discharge it well.

He wouldn't have a hope of being involved in drafting a replacement today. As a pale, stale, male member of The Elite his sort would wouldn't fit with the need for 'inclusion', 'balance' and the need to consider people's 'lived experience'.

Rather than experts, a 21st Constitutional Committee would surely be some sort of monstrosity like the Citizen's Assembly. Some randomly chosen members from Dublin and other selected parts of the country would be joined by 'representatives of Civil Society' - the sort worthies whom recent Presidents and Taoisigh have appointed to the Council of State and the Seanad respectively. They'll all emote at a professional level but few will have the intellectual capacity or academic background for the task.

After a lot of 'public consultation', and doubtless a few focus groups, they'll produce some sort of woolly-headed mish-mash of a thing that will be filled with good intentions and pious aspirations but which will, if it's adopted, cause untold misery when used to deal with real-life matters in the courts.

The only small glimmer of hope I'm willing to entertain is that it will be defeated by the combined votes of the awkward squad (who can be relied on to oppose everything) and the ever diminishing cohort of educated voters.
That's a thoughtful post.

I think you should rest easy. The current government aren't the types to write a new constitution. For all its faults, Bunreacht has held up well and it's amendable, so if we need a constitutional change to make reunification more attractive then it's not impossible.

The more I think about it Varadkar`s comment on the need for a new state is probably just scaremongering.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Ah well, you know politicians and change. Every suggestion to them is impossible until it becomes probable at which point they will claim they foresaw it all along.

Nature of the beast.

What people sometimes forget about the constitution (and those who drafted it did point this out) is that it was never intended as some kind of Rosetta Stone, never to be redrafted in case existence lost all meaning. They specifically said it was their view that the aspirations and duties described in the constitution should change in line with the expressed wishes of the people.

It is supposed to be a dynamic thing, not a stationary block on change.
 

Talk Back

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'That's not true'?? My experience not matching yours doesn't make it 'not true'. I too have worked in England, I'm married to an English girl and have many English friends and family. Almost without exception, they are all aware of the difference between a proud Ulster unionist and a bitter Irish nationalist. Maybe you simply mix in less educated circles?
What has the Irish province of Ulster got to you foreigners - other than you Unionists are squatting on land in 6 counties of 9 county Ulster that you stole from us Irish people???
 

Ardillaun

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'That's not true'?? My experience not matching yours doesn't make it 'not true'. I too have worked in England, I'm married to an English girl and have many English friends and family. Almost without exception, they are all aware of the difference between a proud Ulster unionist and a bitter Irish nationalist. Maybe you simply mix in less educated circles?
I’m seeing English people realising to their dismay that Paddy is going to start ranting again and quickly reassuring him that they know he is, what, a Unionist? Thank goodness we got that right. You know what he’s like.
 

Ardillaun

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UI is a question Irish people have multiple answers to depending on how it is asked. As a general proposition, most of us are for it and we would agree it’s something that would be beneficial for both parts of the island in the longer term. However, if you start bringing in the possibility of raised taxes, increased national debt or stretching the security forces to breaking point, then the response would be more difficult to predict beyond the confines of p.ie.
 

McTell

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//However, if you start bringing in the possibility of raised taxes, increased national debt or stretching the security forces to breaking point, then the response would be more difficult to predict beyond the confines of p.ie.

Our propaganda used to say that the nordies wanted unity but were being held in bondage by the brit military machine. I think we've got beyond that.

We also wanted a deal to be done by dublin and london, over the heads of the natives.

Now we look at the 100 miles of "barriers" between "working class" communities, so the real border is now within NI, and that is the one that has to be eliminated. There's no way we should take on a patch that is still so divided.

Maybe we could take on fermanagh and tyrone for starters and see how it goes? Money, life choices and so on. The reality is, very few peeps want to be drumlin farmers any more.
 

AhNowStop

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Lads don’t worry your wee heads about it, thankfully provision has been made in the GFA for how it will all work out so childish trolling talk of repartitioning et al is just embarrassing deluded fantasy which is probably better left in the past...

Brexit, combined with DUP bigotry has simply speeded the process along ... to your dismay no doubt :)

Btw have you guys not been paying attention to the polls (north & south) this past few years .... thankfully they paint a more realistic picture which clearly shows you lads’ views are in the minority and your votes simply won’t be needed ... fortunately you’re an irrelevance lads ;)
 

McTell

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Lads don’t worry your wee heads about it, thankfully provision has been made in the GFA for how it will all work out so childish trolling talk of repartitioning et al is just embarrassing deluded fantasy which is probably better left in the past...

//
We'd like to think so. But I'm not seeing any groundswell of support and large demonstrations for major change, so maybe a minor change and "suck it and see" will be the best way forward.

We all know the basic prob was too many peeps in NI never wanted an NI.

Irishness will have to be redefined as "I'm living on the island in 2019", not around religions, invasions, rights and wrongs, languages and so on. Some of us won't like that, but it is the logical way forward.

Ask the 20,000 polish (catholic) immigrants up there what they think.
 

Paddyc

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We'd like to think so. But I'm not seeing any groundswell of support and large demonstrations for major change, so maybe a minor change and "suck it and see" will be the best way forward.

We all know the basic prob was too many peeps in NI never wanted an NI.

Irishness will have to be redefined as "I'm living on the island in 2019", not around religions, invasions, rights and wrongs, languages and so on. Some of us won't like that, but it is the logical way forward.

Ask the 20,000 polish (catholic) immigrants up there what they think.
Yeah, let's ask them if they'd rather be in the EU or not and all that entails in relation to work permits and currency fluctuation and all that.

Let's ask them if they want the politicians in charge to be best buddies with the people who throw Polish flags on bonfires.
 

McTell

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It's also obvious (to me) that if the brits were het up about a net payment of 8 billion a year to the eu, they will soon become even more het up about 10 billion net pa going to NI.

With no thanks or payback that I can see.

But unless basic attitudes change on both sides, we will have to pay that 10 bill and still have no thanks or payback. Unity will be run from dublin by mostly the existing pols and civil servants. They don't like poor peeps on welfare.

A drop in grants will mean lower property prices that will be good for new investors. The EIB could chip in a lot for a unity fund. But I can't see the old style "working class" being better off.

My basic point being, we can change all we like, but it has to be managed, real world change. I'm not seeing anyone coming up with amazing plans. We don't want 2 indian-reservation type groups that will always want paying off to get out of the way of progress.
 

AhNowStop

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We'd like to think so. But I'm not seeing any groundswell of support and large demonstrations for major change, so maybe a minor change and "suck it and see" will be the best way forward.

We all know the basic prob was too many peeps in NI never wanted an NI.

Irishness will have to be redefined as "I'm living on the island in 2019", not around religions, invasions, rights and wrongs, languages and so on. Some of us won't like that, but it is the logical way forward.

Ask the 20,000 polish (catholic) immigrants up there what they think.
Firstly, find a copy of the GFA, have a wee read and come back to me .. I think you'll find no mention of a second repartition .. it didnt work the first time and wont be tried again .. it wasnt even considered ffs :rolleyes:
Of course loons like you pop up every once in a while with it but like RDE, Eoin Harris & yourself, its an irrelevance when all's said and done ... you will all be out-voted im happy to say and wont count a jot ;)

and ffs dont be trying to tell us that the polish catholics are british unionists now 😂 .. You totally prove that you really havent the foggiest about this place when you come out with nonsense like that .. I wont go into details on why because all the folk who actually "do" know anything about here know full well ....

Here's a wee tip btw .... you should really try and educate yourself on the subject before you go trolling ole bean ;)
 

McTell

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//

Here's a wee tip btw .... you should really try and educate yourself on the subject before you go trolling ole bean ;)

Seems that the solutions aren't making a lot of people much happier if they are underpinned by 100 miles of walls and 10 billion a year.

So while i'm all for the GFA, and was in the 95% that supported it here, they are still far off the land of milk and honey. I'm always looking for new ideas if the old ones aren't working. Maybe they are working?
 

AhNowStop

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Seems that the solutions aren't making a lot of people much happier if they are underpinned by 100 miles of walls and 10 billion a year.

So while i'm all for the GFA, and was in the 95% that supported it here, they are still far off the land of milk and honey. I'm always looking for new ideas if the old ones aren't working. Maybe they are working?
Thats great please let us know what your "new" ideas are... so far you have just repeated old ideas (repartition) that didnt work and wont be considered again because they didnt work..

can you see how you're contradicting yourself ?
 

McTell

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Thats great please let us know what your "new" ideas are... so far you have just repeated old ideas (repartition) that didnt work and wont be considered again because they didnt work..

can you see how you're contradicting yourself ?

OK, maybe the present situation suits you best, or is the best of a bad deal for the greatest number.

TBH I don;t have much to do with the 6 counties, but after unity it will be 6 out of 32 and not getting a huge amount of love if the natives can't be effed to love each other first.

Repartition could be a big mistake, but lets ask the people in fermanagh and tyrone first. Have they ever been asked? We know they don't want a gold mine.
 

Mickeymac

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Thats great please let us know what your "new" ideas are... so far you have just repeated old ideas (repartition) that didnt work and wont be considered again because they didnt work..

can you see how you're contradicting yourself ?


McT is one of the more clueless Irish types, (regarding the conflict) that roam around here, I came to that conclusion yonks ago and gave up on the free teaching lessons I was giving.
 

McTell

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McT is one of the more clueless Irish types, (regarding the conflict) that roam around here, I came to that conclusion yonks ago and gave up on the free teaching lessons I was giving.

Can we stop looking at it as a "conflict" and start thinking about what will work for everyone?

Call me clueless, but it seems that anything based on old school nationalism or unionism didn't work. So we need another identity based on the island and not on dumb ideas from the 1600s.

New ideas and changes are needed from the nordies, if the rest of us ignorant mexicants can't be trusted.
 


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