• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

What explains the international rise of lying populist political parties: voters' lack of understanding and power hungry politicians?


Patslatt1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
3,678
What expalins the international rise of lying populist political parties: voters' lack of understanding and power hungry politicians?

Western democracy is under threat from the rise of lying populist political parties as voters become disillusioned with establishment political parties for two principal reasons.First, voters lack understanding of issues. Usually,this is offset by a)the swing votes of floating voters who generally are better informed and whose votes determine the winners in elections b)informal discussions of the issues among groups of voters in which the views of the better informed tend to prevail c)the role of mass media in educating voters and d)the change in standards of living when correctly attributed to a government.

Second, establishment political parties are usually controlled by power hungry politicians who cling to power by refusing to make reforms in the national interest or delaying reforms too long.

In the USA, Trump's populist victory was down to the political system's neglect of the blue collar and low income workers in old industrial states experiencing industrial decline. Because the voracious medical care system swallows about 18% of the economy and military spending takes another 8%, there is little tax money left over to help socially deprived areas of declining states with education, training and social welfare. In the future,the failure of political parties to impose tight controls on medical spending will continue to have serious consequences as an ageing population makes increased demands for medical care.

In Europe, the main political failure has been the imposition of excessive job protection which has resulted in people in their late twenties and older age groups employed in insider jobs with very strong job security and young outsiders who work on a series of short contracts. France, Spain, Italy and Greece suffer horrendous youth employment rates of 30% plus.

In France, racial tensions are undoubtedly explained largely by even greater unemployment rates among minorities. Fortunately, President Macron has introduced major reductions in job security. In the past thirty years, all attempts at such reform were blocked by trade union strikes and even by demos of unemployed youth who hoped to get on the permanent job ladder.

Another factor creating crisis levels of unemployment is job destroying employer payroll taxes in many countries; in France they can add about 50% to the wage cost of an employee. Such taxes should largely be replaced by general taxation but that would require a more disciplined welfare state.

The snailpace economic growth caused by the above economic policies has created an opening for lying populists,often racists, who offer simplistic policies that are usually wrong and who try to buy the votes of low income people with big jumps in social welfare spending that is financed by deficits. In Poland, the latter contributed to big general election swings in the poor eastern part of the country to the present populist governing party and similarly in the recent Italian election, the South went over to the Five Star Movement populists.

To stop the threat of lying populists, is it too much to expect that establishment political parties would put the national interest ahead of staying in power?

In Ireland, it is urgent to introduce major radical reforms of the dysfunctional hospital system,to remove unnecessary planning permission obstacles to housing building, to invest heavily in modernisation of water supplies and provision of rural broadband and to concentrate investment in infrastructure for Cork, Limerick and Galway to create an alternative to an overly dominant greater Dublin. All of these goals are politically sensitive but if the government was willing to chance losing an election, it could largely achieve them in a few years. Instead, we are likely to see these cans kicked down the road.
 

Talk Back

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
5,825
When you say Ireland - do you mean Ireland or just the 'Southern Ireland' State?
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
52,093
In Ireland and the UK the problem is neoliberal sweatshop work practices in the private sector, including abuse of agency staff to undercut wages. Both Irish and migrant labour is being forced into bogus self employment on building sites to undercut wages. Bed and board is being deducted from wages even when the quality of the bed and board is unsafe for human habitation such as the building on "Nightmare to Rent". Also there is a blurring of the lines between asylum lawyers, politicians, landlords and employers that are conspiring to profit from this.

You may call the criticisms "populism" but I dont see that word as necessarily a negative one if it becomes an impetus for politicians to do something instead of sitting on their hands.

In the US, UK and Ireland, real-terms wages have been flat for in some cases 11 years. The cost of living continues to rise in Ireland, eroding nominal wage increases. We are sowing the seeds of a second property bubble and what competitiveness we may be getting from cheap labour is being eroded by high legal, rental, property and health costs.
 
Last edited:

Patslatt1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
3,678
In Ireland and the UK the problem is neoliberal sweatshop work practices in the private sector, including abuse of agency staff to undercut wages. Both Irish and migrant labour is being forced into bogus self employment on building sites to undercut wages. Bed and board is being deducted from wages even when the quality of the bed and board is unsafe for human habitation such as the building on "Nightmare to Rent". Also there is a blurring of the lines between asylum lawyers, politicians, landlords and employers that are conspiring to profit from this.

You may call the criticisms "populism" but I dont see that word as necessarily a negative one if it becomes an impetus for politicians to do something instead of sitting on their hands.

In the US, UK and Ireland, real-terms wages have been flat for in some cases 11 years. The cost of living continues to rise in Ireland, eroding nominal wage increases. We are sowing the seeds of a second property bubble and what competitiveness we may be getting from cheap labour is being eroded by high legal, rental, property and health costs.
Populism includes peddling political fantasies, such as hard left Irish parties' promises to spend like drunken sailors and of course the imaginary rich will pay for everything.

Flat wages internationally and insecure employment conditions result from a huge oversupply of labour thanks to the economic crash. But conditions are now improving.Irish wages have been rising. There are signs of a pick up in wages in the USA now that widespread labour shortages are occuring. UK wages have been depressed by the fall in the £ after Brexit which increased import costs. It also seems that generous tax credits that subsidised low wages plus low interest rates have prevented the culling of inefficient firms that is necessary for productivity and high wage growth.
 
Last edited:

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
52,093
Populism includes peddling political fantasies, such as hard left Irish parties' promises to spend like drunken sailors and of course the imaginary rich will pay for everything.

Flat wages internationally and insecure employment conditions result from an oversupply of labour thanks to the economic crash. Irish wages have been rising. There are signs of a pick up in wages in the USA now that widespread labour shortages are occuring. UK wages have been depressed by the fall in the £ after Brexit which increased import costs. It also seems that generous tax credits that subsidised low wages plus low interest rates have prevented the culling of inefficient firms that is necessary for productivity and high wage growth.
And the cost of living?

During the French Revolution the price of bread was a major factor in the violence and political upheaval even during the Republican phase. I often wonder have the ruling elite ever read a history book. :roll: Of course nowadays its not bread thats expensive but legal costs, property, rents, healthcare etc.

In the book "Revolt of the Elites and the Betrayal of Democracy" by Christopher Lasch, it is argued that the economic elite increasingly embraces the concept of global citizenship - but without the social obligations that come with citizenship. I think thats the problem. When you get rid of the concept of state citizenship you may embrace "diversity" but you also abandon social solidarity. In the US, the share of national income held by the top 1% has risen from 11% in 1980 to 20% now, while the bottom half earn 13% of income.

wikipedia on Christopher Lasch's book "Revolt of the Elites" said:
...Globalization, according to the sociologist, has turned elites into tourists in their own countries. The de-nationalisation of society tends to produce a class who see themselves as "world citizens, but without accepting ... any of the obligations that citizenship in a polity normally implies". Their ties to an international culture of work, leisure, information - make many of them deeply indifferent to the prospect of national decline. Instead of financing public services and the public treasury, new elites are investing their money in improving their voluntary ghettos: private schools in their residential neighborhoods, private police, garbage collection systems. They have "withdrawn from common life".....
PublicPolicy.ie has said that the top 10% in Ireland have 58.1% of capital income. Capital income accounts for 40% of income of the top 1% and 54% for the top 0.1%. And while the site says that 60% of wealth is with the over 55s, and that the main source of wealth is the primary residence and the farm (and obviously that is not always reflective of liquid assets). This points to a younger generation being less well off than their parents and grandparents, and I would attribute that in part to the problems in Post 3 of this thread, which impose stresses not encountered before open borders and the Thatcherite reforms of the 1980s and 90s.
 
Last edited:

PC Principle

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2016
Messages
4,982
When you say Ireland - do you mean Ireland or just the 'Southern Ireland' State?
Which is called Ireland.

When are Irish people going to learn name of their country?
 

bokuden

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
11,349
Western democracy is under threat from the rise of lying populist political parties as voters become disillusioned with establishment political parties for two principal reasons.First, voters lack understanding of issues. Usually,this is offset by a)the swing votes of floating voters who generally are better informed and whose votes determine the winners in elections b)informal discussions of the issues among groups of voters in which the views of the better informed tend to prevail c)the role of mass media in educating voters and d)the change in standards of living when correctly attributed to a government.

Second, establishment political parties are usually controlled by power hungry politicians who cling to power by refusing to make reforms in the national interest or delaying reforms too long.

In the USA, Trump's populist victory was down to the political system's neglect of the blue collar and low income workers in old industrial states experiencing industrial decline. Because the voracious medical care system swallows about 18% of the economy and military spending takes another 8%, there is little tax money left over to help socially deprived areas of declining states with education, training and social welfare. In the future,the failure of political parties to impose tight controls on medical spending will continue to have serious consequences as an ageing population makes increased demands for medical care.

In Europe, the main political failure has been the imposition of excessive job protection which has resulted in people in their late twenties and older age groups employed in insider jobs with very strong job security and young outsiders who work on a series of short contracts. France, Spain, Italy and Greece suffer horrendous youth employment rates of 30% plus.

In France, racial tensions are undoubtedly explained largely by even greater unemployment rates among minorities. Fortunately, President Macron has introduced major reductions in job security. In the past thirty years, all attempts at such reform were blocked by trade union strikes and even by demos of unemployed youth who hoped to get on the permanent job ladder.

Another factor creating crisis levels of unemployment is job destroying employer payroll taxes in many countries; in France they can add about 50% to the wage cost of an employee. Such taxes should largely be replaced by general taxation but that would require a more disciplined welfare state.

The snailpace economic growth caused by the above economic policies has created an opening for lying populists,often racists, who offer simplistic policies that are usually wrong and who try to buy the votes of low income people with big jumps in social welfare spending that is financed by deficits. In Poland, the latter contributed to big general election swings in the poor eastern part of the country to the present populist governing party and similarly in the recent Italian election, the South went over to the Five Star Movement populists.

To stop the threat of lying populists, is it too much to expect that establishment political parties would put the national interest ahead of staying in power?

In Ireland, it is urgent to introduce major radical reforms of the dysfunctional hospital system,to remove unnecessary planning permission obstacles to housing building, to invest heavily in modernisation of water supplies and provision of rural broadband and to concentrate investment in infrastructure for Cork, Limerick and Galway to create an alternative to an overly dominant greater Dublin. All of these goals are politically sensitive but if the government was willing to chance losing an election, it could largely achieve them in a few years. Instead, we are likely to see these cans kicked down the road.
Indeed. Fine gael are running the country here and they are a great example of a lying populist party.
 

making waves

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
19,184
Patslatt is back to give us another one of his - wrong - insights into how we need to embrace the 'free market'.
 

Watcher2

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
34,133
What explains it? I'd say it has a lot to do with the lying, scum sucking, anti citizen old guard politics.
 

jmcc

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
42,304
Patslatt is back to give us another one of his - wrong - insights into how we need to embrace the 'free market'.
Could be worse. In one of his previous threads, he wanted me to explain how to implement an electronic customs system for free. :) Are you sure he isn't a communist?
 

devoutcapitalist

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
16,607
What explains it? I'd say it has a lot to do with the lying, scum sucking, anti citizen old guard politics.
All politicians lie in order to win votes and the populist spoofers that Patslatt mentions are the biggest liars of them all.

I'm already looking forward to seeing the 5SM in power reneging on their election promises when/If reality dawns.

Sure look at the humiliating 360 degree turn that Syriza implemented in Greece after a few months in power.
 

PBP voter

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Messages
9,014
Neoliberalism is at fault.

Since it took over post WW2 in the OECD countries things have got worse.

Better housing,education,access to healthcare,better public transportation,more workers rights etc are just to cover up what's going on.

Also welfareism is a product of neoliberalism not socialism and it's become a way of life for too many.
 

brigg

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
496
What happens if the desires, aims and priorities of the political class, genuinely differ from those of everyone else?

Political leaders may believe what's best for them is best for everyone else. Any desires of the masses that don't suit the elite is inevitably shouted down as populism.
A certain amount of "populism," should always be healthy and necessary in a functioning democracy.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
45,580
All politicians lie in order to win votes and the populist spoofers that Patslatt mentions are the biggest liars of them all.

I'm already looking forward to seeing the 5SM in power reneging on their election promises when/If reality dawns.

Sure look at the humiliating 360 degree turn that Syriza implemented in Greece after a few months in power.
This is just nihilism.

Both revolutions and elections are won by coalitions and outcomes are going to be subject to compromises and tradeoffs. Fact.

The notion that putting a Man on Horseback in power, be he Trump, Putin or Orban, so that he can create some kind of Utopian bubble and satisfy everyone (but especially rich white guys) is the biggest con of all. Invariably, these men turn out to be crooked oligarchs and their families, usually landing the country in a worse situation.
 

Spirit Of Newgrange

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,724
''closer integration with the EU will not cause problems of immigration'' albert Reynolds, managing to overturn a democratic referendum in ireland.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
45,580
What happens if the desires, aims and priorities of the political class, genuinely differ from those of everyone else?

Political leaders may believe what's best for them is best for everyone else. Any desires of the masses that don't suit the elite is inevitably shouted down as populism.
A certain amount of "populism," should always be healthy and necessary in a functioning democracy.
Actually, I agree.

"Populism" per se is healthy and may even be good. As long as the populists step down when their democratic mandate expires.

But watch for the populist leaders who claim "their" election should be the last one - much like Trump has said he would love to do. Or Orban. Or Kaczinski, seizing control of the media and the courts so he can make his rule permanent. Or the Brexiteers to whom the Brexit referendum is now a sacred event and to say the outcome was a mistake is treason.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
45,580
''closer integration with the EU will not cause problems of immigration'' albert Reynolds, managing to overturn a democratic referendum in ireland.
And he was right.

If you are claiming Ireland has an immigration problem, then prove it.

Few seem to notice, if it has.
 

RasherHash

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
24,927
Top