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What if? (Alternate History)


PhoenixIreland

Active member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
260
Website
www.huffingtonpost.com


Inspired by this pretty interesting book I thought I'd start a "what if" dicusssion.

The more interesting what ifs that occur to me:

What if Al Gore had become President in 2001?



  • Would the US have invaded Iraq? Unlikley since there would be no neo-cons in the administration, would that mean the price of oil was far lower? What effect would that have had on the global economy?
  • Would he have handeled September 11th diffrently? Can you picture Gore with his arm around a firefighter at ground
    zero standing on a pile of rubble rallying the country?
  • Would he have harnessed the phenomenal good will the US had after the attacks and used it diffrently?
  • We should think of the strong possibility that the fascinating 2008 election might have been a snoozefest between Vice President Liebrman and some flat white republican, may have still been McCain, or Romney, in any case after 16 years of Democratic rule, we might be looking at President Romney or President McCain now. Joe Liberman would almost certanly have ran given his recent ambitions, and it's rare a sitting VP is challenged for the nomination, so short of him not running, Hillary and Barack would not have had a chance this year, Barack could wait four years and might have happened anyway, but poor Hillary never would have got her shot.


What if the 1921 treaty had not been signed and the WOI continued?
  • Would we be still be part of the UK?
  • Would the WOI have fizzled out eventualy as all other Irish rebellions did before that?
  • Would continuing the fight have accomplished a full 32 county republic? or just delayed the inevitable 26 county
    soloution?

What if the 1916 rising had never happened?
Would the third home rule bill have come in after the war, where would that leave ulster?


What if proportional representation had been abolished?
Both referendums on this were turned down but what if people had been convinced by the "stablity" arugment?
  • Would we be living in a glorified one party state with FF having a permenant majority or would it have forced FG to become more organized? The Rainbow government would never have happened and we may never have had free third level. The Green party, the PDs, and Sinn Fein would be single-seat RESPECT style parties or non-existant in Dail Eireann. Would the PDs policies have happened anyway with the neoliberal trend throughout the west? Just perhaps to a lesser extreme?
  • Would FTPT have meant more stable leadership during the 1980s? or would it have encouraged more wreckless 1977 style policies?
  • With Independents being powerless would South Kerry have a lot more pot holes and the Dublin North Inner City be far more run down?


What if the Kerry-McCain ticket had materalized in 2004?



This was John Kerrys dream ticket in 2004, a unity ticket, two vietnam vets, a republican VP nominee who was at the time considered a moderate and whom Bush had used dirty tactics to defeat in 2000. His proposal was to make the VP slot more akin to the Tainiste slot here, with a specific powerful portfilio, in this case a super-ministry with control over national security.
The idea was endorced by future VP Joe Biden "...if John Kerry said that's who he wanted, and McCain — I'd encourage McCain to say yes. .... you know, we need some unity here, man. The red states and the blue states — we've got to have something to coalesce around here."
"John Kerry is a close friend of mine. We have been friends for years," McCain said on Good Morning America "Obviously I would entertain it."
A CBS poll showed a Kerry-McCain ticket destroying the Bush-Cheney ticket 53%-39%, other polls showed the ticket touching 60%.

McCain eventually decided against it and let it be known he would not accept the job if offered, the rest is history, as we know Edwards was a useless VP nominee.
If this ticket had gone forward the Bush era would have gone down as a short lived but dangerious hiccup in American history, a man without a mandate who was outsted before he could do any more damage.

What if we had never joined the European Union, but the EEA/EFTA?
  • Would we still be a basket case economy? Where else would we have found they money for so many of our capital spending projects?
  • Would we (ever) have developed our fishing waters and natural resources Norway style?

What if there had been an Irish Presidential election in 2004
If the parties had not prevented an election, would the various contenders have had a chance against Mary Mac? She had a 90% approval rating at the time.
Could Micheal D. Higgans, Eamon Ryan or Dana have pulled out a surprise win 1990 style? Could a dark horse independent have emerged?
 


PhoenixIreland

Active member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
260
Website
www.huffingtonpost.com
Nothing?

WELL YOU CAN ALL GO TO HELL! :oops::cry:
 

Bobert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,072
McCain would have one this year.
 

Bobert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,072



Sorry...?
 

PhoenixIreland

Active member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
260
Website
www.huffingtonpost.com



Sorry...?
Flowers can't make up for the prospect of a McCain presidency.
IF the Kerry-McCain ticket had ran we'd be looking at the (very dull) second term of President Kerry now.

If we had an election in 2004 I would have voted for Dana, I'd like to see what happens when she refuses to sign something out of moral objection.
 

Bobert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,072

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
223,358
What if Al Gore had become President in 2001?

Well that ones easy. Some people think Gore was the real president of the USA. Gore had a chance of saving the world from 10 years of Bush by challenging vote rigging in Florida so if elected President Gore in an alternative reality he could be revealed as a Neocon plant among the liberals in order to divert their mandates to neocon policies if elected by a liberal majority. Consider the theory that even now while he campaigns for carbon taxes and restraint in the usage of energy, it is the developing countries like India and China which would be most hurt by these policies. Yet these countries in most alternate realities have the potential to rival the USA in terms of power. This is why suppressing their challenge with carbon taxes and high oil prices is one of the goals decided upon by Bush and Gore during secret Skull and Bones rituals in this alternate reality. I cant' vouch for whats happening in this version of reality we are in now though ;)
 

sandar

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
1,854
9/11 would have happened anyway and the american public would have demanded revenge, so while Iraq(havingprecisely nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks) might not ahve been attacke d somewhere else would ahve been under Gore.
The Environmental argument is an interesting one, at that time, a president Gore would have had the chance, time space and most importantly resources to do a lot of these things which cannot be done to the same extent now with the economy where it is, and the green agenda at the very bootm of a reccesion shaped hole.
 

ae597

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
1
Hi Phoenix Ireland
Just just read your article about a Kerry-McCain ticket, very interesting indeed
My own web site www.todayinah.co.uk is all about Alternate History, I'd love to explore this idea in my own format, but fully accredited to you of course :)
Please let me know if this is acceptable
My email is althistorian@gmail.com
I cant private message you because I havent posted 100 times yet :-(
Thanks for your interest
Sincerely
Steve
 

Defeated Romanticist

Active member
Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Messages
277


Inspired by this pretty interesting book I thought I'd start a "what if" discussion.

The more interesting what ifs that occur to me:

What if Al Gore had become President in 2001?



  • Would the US have invaded Iraq? Unlikley since there would be no neo-cons in the administration, would that mean the price of oil was far lower? What effect would that have had on the global economy?
  • Would he have handeled September 11th diffrently? Can you picture Gore with his arm around a firefighter at ground
    zero standing on a pile of rubble rallying the country?
  • Would he have harnessed the phenomenal good will the US had after the attacks and used it diffrently?
  • We should think of the strong possibility that the fascinating 2008 election might have been a snoozefest between Vice President Liebrman and some flat white republican, may have still been McCain, or Romney, in any case after 16 years of Democratic rule, we might be looking at President Romney or President McCain now. Joe Liberman would almost certanly have ran given his recent ambitions, and it's rare a sitting VP is challenged for the nomination, so short of him not running, Hillary and Barack would not have had a chance this year, Barack could wait four years and might have happened anyway, but poor Hillary never would have got her shot.


What if the 1921 treaty had not been signed and the WOI continued?
  • Would we be still be part of the UK?
  • Would the WOI have fizzled out eventualy as all other Irish rebellions did before that?
  • Would continuing the fight have accomplished a full 32 county republic? or just delayed the inevitable 26 county
    soloution?
What if the 1916 rising had never happened?
Would the third home rule bill have come in after the war, where would that leave ulster?


What if proportional representation had been abolished?

Both referendums on this were turned down but what if people had been convinced by the "stablity" arugment?
  • Would we be living in a glorified one party state with FF having a permenant majority or would it have forced FG to become more organized? The Rainbow government would never have happened and we may never have had free third level. The Green party, the PDs, and Sinn Fein would be single-seat RESPECT style parties or non-existant in Dail Eireann. Would the PDs policies have happened anyway with the neoliberal trend throughout the west? Just perhaps to a lesser extreme?
  • Would FTPT have meant more stable leadership during the 1980s? or would it have encouraged more wreckless 1977 style policies?
  • With Independents being powerless would South Kerry have a lot more pot holes and the Dublin North Inner City be far more run down?

What if the Kerry-McCain ticket had materalized in 2004?



This was John Kerrys dream ticket in 2004, a unity ticket, two vietnam vets, a republican VP nominee who was at the time considered a moderate and whom Bush had used dirty tactics to defeat in 2000. His proposal was to make the VP slot more akin to the Tainiste slot here, with a specific powerful portfilio, in this case a super-ministry with control over national security.
The idea was endorced by future VP Joe Biden "...if John Kerry said that's who he wanted, and McCain — I'd encourage McCain to say yes. .... you know, we need some unity here, man. The red states and the blue states — we've got to have something to coalesce around here."
"John Kerry is a close friend of mine. We have been friends for years," McCain said on Good Morning America "Obviously I would entertain it."
A CBS poll showed a Kerry-McCain ticket destroying the Bush-Cheney ticket 53%-39%, other polls showed the ticket touching 60%.

McCain eventually decided against it and let it be known he would not accept the job if offered, the rest is history, as we know Edwards was a useless VP nominee.
If this ticket had gone forward the Bush era would have gone down as a short lived but dangerious hiccup in American history, a man without a mandate who was outsted before he could do any more damage.


What if we had never joined the European Union, but the EEA/EFTA?
  • Would we still be a basket case economy? Where else would we have found they money for so many of our capital spending projects?
  • Would we (ever) have developed our fishing waters and natural resources Norway style?
What if there had been an Irish Presidential election in 2004
If the parties had not prevented an election, would the various contenders have had a chance against Mary Mac? She had a 90% approval rating at the time.
Could Micheal D. Higgans, Eamon Ryan or Dana have pulled out a surprise win 1990 style? Could a dark horse independent have emerged?
Gore wasn't president by 2002. That's why he opposed the Iraq war. Vice President Lieberman would have gotten his war one way or the other. Defence Sec Powell would have just had to swallow it. He would have been wooden and stiff on 9/11 so no Bush-like enthusiasm. He would have fought and fought with the Republicans in congress especially after they gain in the 2002 elections as the economy keeps on sucking without the Bush tax cuts while conspiracy theorists suggest that Alan Greenspan is keeping interest rates high to hurt the president, the republican congress uncovers massive scandals in Fannie Mae and Freddie mac as part of a witch-hunt of Democratic community organisers. As a result housing laws are reformed and standards strengthened. Dissatisfied with the suckiness of the economy independents flee. He also faces a challenge from the left. He loses to Rick Santorum 52%-35% with 13 going to some left wing anti war candidate. The republicans have a huge majority and suffer no losses in congressional elections. Peter Fitzgerald who had announced retirement, decides to run again and defeats rising Democratic star Barack Obama narrowly. Obama retires from politics and becomes a tobacco lobbyist.

With his huge majorities president Santorum embarks on an aggressively conservative agenda, sending 70000 troops to Iraq in spite of rising opposition from Democrats who declare it Santorum's war. Gay marriage affirmative action and abortions after three months are prohibited. An immigration over-hall cracks down on immigration. Large tax cuts send the US economy roaring back to life from the doldrums years following the tech crunch. The privatisation of Social Security and the stridency of Santorum's religious agenda cost him support in the 2006 elections but the Republicans retain control. The defeat of Hillary Clinton in the New York Democratic primary is a sign of things to come as a leaderless Democratic party lurches to the left. Santorum defeats the easily caricatured liberal John Kerry 57%-41% despite the American economy dipping into recession as most people blame the European financial crisis for downturn. Alan Greenspan is hailed for his superior monetary ideas as the Euro stumbles toward parity with the dollar.

No 1916? We'd be like Wales. Utterly dependent on English transfer payments.

What if PRSTV had been abolished. Labour would die off in the country while Fine Gael would die off in most of Dublin. Fine Gael come to dominate in Leinster while Fianna Fail dominate in the West and South.

What if we'd never joined the EU? Far fewer farmers as subsidies are unaffordable for small Ireland. Other than that very little difference until 2001 when the Celtic tiger ends and Ireland becomes a low growth economy with an Irish monetary policy.

What if Mary Mac had been challenged in 2004? Someone would have been humiliated.
 

Defeated Romanticist

Active member
Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Messages
277


Inspired by this pretty interesting book I thought I'd start a "what if" discussion.

The more interesting what ifs that occur to me:

What if Al Gore had become President in 2001?



  • Would the US have invaded Iraq? Unlikley since there would be no neo-cons in the administration, would that mean the price of oil was far lower? What effect would that have had on the global economy?
  • Would he have handeled September 11th diffrently? Can you picture Gore with his arm around a firefighter at ground
    zero standing on a pile of rubble rallying the country?
  • Would he have harnessed the phenomenal good will the US had after the attacks and used it diffrently?
  • We should think of the strong possibility that the fascinating 2008 election might have been a snoozefest between Vice President Liebrman and some flat white republican, may have still been McCain, or Romney, in any case after 16 years of Democratic rule, we might be looking at President Romney or President McCain now. Joe Liberman would almost certanly have ran given his recent ambitions, and it's rare a sitting VP is challenged for the nomination, so short of him not running, Hillary and Barack would not have had a chance this year, Barack could wait four years and might have happened anyway, but poor Hillary never would have got her shot.


What if the 1921 treaty had not been signed and the WOI continued?
  • Would we be still be part of the UK?
  • Would the WOI have fizzled out eventualy as all other Irish rebellions did before that?
  • Would continuing the fight have accomplished a full 32 county republic? or just delayed the inevitable 26 county
    soloution?
What if the 1916 rising had never happened?
Would the third home rule bill have come in after the war, where would that leave ulster?


What if proportional representation had been abolished?

Both referendums on this were turned down but what if people had been convinced by the "stablity" arugment?
  • Would we be living in a glorified one party state with FF having a permenant majority or would it have forced FG to become more organized? The Rainbow government would never have happened and we may never have had free third level. The Green party, the PDs, and Sinn Fein would be single-seat RESPECT style parties or non-existant in Dail Eireann. Would the PDs policies have happened anyway with the neoliberal trend throughout the west? Just perhaps to a lesser extreme?
  • Would FTPT have meant more stable leadership during the 1980s? or would it have encouraged more wreckless 1977 style policies?
  • With Independents being powerless would South Kerry have a lot more pot holes and the Dublin North Inner City be far more run down?

What if the Kerry-McCain ticket had materalized in 2004?



This was John Kerrys dream ticket in 2004, a unity ticket, two vietnam vets, a republican VP nominee who was at the time considered a moderate and whom Bush had used dirty tactics to defeat in 2000. His proposal was to make the VP slot more akin to the Tainiste slot here, with a specific powerful portfilio, in this case a super-ministry with control over national security.
The idea was endorced by future VP Joe Biden "...if John Kerry said that's who he wanted, and McCain — I'd encourage McCain to say yes. .... you know, we need some unity here, man. The red states and the blue states — we've got to have something to coalesce around here."
"John Kerry is a close friend of mine. We have been friends for years," McCain said on Good Morning America "Obviously I would entertain it."
A CBS poll showed a Kerry-McCain ticket destroying the Bush-Cheney ticket 53%-39%, other polls showed the ticket touching 60%.

McCain eventually decided against it and let it be known he would not accept the job if offered, the rest is history, as we know Edwards was a useless VP nominee.
If this ticket had gone forward the Bush era would have gone down as a short lived but dangerious hiccup in American history, a man without a mandate who was outsted before he could do any more damage.


What if we had never joined the European Union, but the EEA/EFTA?
  • Would we still be a basket case economy? Where else would we have found they money for so many of our capital spending projects?
  • Would we (ever) have developed our fishing waters and natural resources Norway style?
What if there had been an Irish Presidential election in 2004
If the parties had not prevented an election, would the various contenders have had a chance against Mary Mac? She had a 90% approval rating at the time.
Could Micheal D. Higgans, Eamon Ryan or Dana have pulled out a surprise win 1990 style? Could a dark horse independent have emerged?
Gore wasn't president by 2002. That's why he opposed the Iraq war. Vice President Lieberman would have gotten his war one way or the other. Defence Sec Powell would have just had to swallow it. He would have been wooden and stiff on 9/11 so no Bush-like enthusiasm. He would have fought and fought with the Republicans in congress especially after they gain in the 2002 elections as the economy keeps on sucking without the Bush tax cuts while conspiracy theorists suggest that Alan Greenspan is keeping interest rates high to hurt the president, the republican congress uncovers massive scandals in Fannie Mae and Freddie mac as part of a witch-hunt of Democratic community organisers. As a result housing laws are reformed and standards strengthened. Dissatisfied with the suckiness of the economy independents flee. He also faces a challenge from the left. He loses to Rick Santorum 52%-35% with 13 going to some left wing anti war candidate. The republicans have a huge majority and suffer no losses in congressional elections. Peter Fitzgerald who had announced retirement, decides to run again and defeats rising Democratic star Barack Obama narrowly. Obama retires from politics and becomes a tobacco lobbyist.

With his huge majorities president Santorum embarks on an aggressively conservative agenda, sending 70000 troops to Iraq in spite of rising opposition from Democrats who declare it Santorum's war. Gay marriage affirmative action and abortions after three months are prohibited. An immigration over-hall cracks down on immigration. Large tax cuts send the US economy roaring back to life from the doldrums years following the tech crunch. The privatisation of Social Security and the stridency of Santorum's religious agenda cost him support in the 2006 elections but the Republicans retain control. The defeat of Hillary Clinton in the New York Democratic primary is a sign of things to come as a leaderless Democratic party lurches to the left. Santorum defeats the easily caricatured liberal John Kerry 57%-41% despite the American economy dipping into recession as most people blame the European financial crisis for downturn. Alan Greenspan is hailed for his superior monetary ideas as the Euro stumbles toward parity with the dollar.

No 1916? We'd be like Wales. Utterly dependent on English transfer payments.

What if PRSTV had been abolished. Labour would die off in the country while Fine Gael would die off in most of Dublin. Fine Gael come to dominate in Leinster while Fianna Fail dominate in the West and South.

What if we'd never joined the EU? Far fewer farmers as subsidies are unaffordable for small Ireland. Other than that very little difference until 2001 when the Celtic tiger ends and Ireland becomes a low growth economy with an Irish monetary policy.

What if Mary Mac had been challenged in 2004? Someone would have been humiliated.
 

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