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ringobrodgar

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It's important to remember that these groups represent two very different ideologies and that cohabitation or cooperation wasn't tangible in the long run. While they both strived for the total deconstruction of the imperialist Roman state and all its power structures, they vastly differed in their opinions on what the Romans really did for them. You could say that the PFJ was much more aware of the positive effects the Romans had on the Judean region. Don't be mistaken though, the truly hated the Romans. I mean, they didn't just hate them like everyone else, they hated them a lot. So despite their recognition of Roman improvements, they were still actively sabotaging the Roman government.

That being said, the PFJ explicitly recognized Roman improvements in various areas. One prime example were the aquaducts and sanitation. Unlike most members of the JPF, the leader of the PFJ clearly remembered what the city used to be like before the Romans came into power, suffice it to say that he never wavered on this particular point. It didn't stop there though, the roads go without saying, but there were many more Roman improvements that were actively recognized as such by the PFJ. They were also very vocal and positive about the Roman wine, medicine, public health and irrigation. Most of all, they recognized the fact that the Roman military was probably one of the only known organizations capable of maintaining public order in a place like that. However, despite all of this, they still hated the Romans a lot and often raised the question as to what the Romans had ever done for them.

In contrast, the JPF never even acknowledged these improvements and they were a lot more linear in their thinking. To them anything Roman was despicable. Both ideologies were very uncompromising and this ultimately led to the split between both parties. You could say that the PFJ was a lot less radical in their ideology, eventhough their actions say otherwise.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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nice thought experiment for a political website, ringobrodgar, and a quirky enough proposal. As for the subject matter I think unusually that Welsh nationalism appeared to be a factor for the Judean People's Front whereas the PFJ were pretty silent on the subject of the Welsh Assembly.

There are signs that militant Welsh nationalists were infiltrating both parties in Judea at the time. Small clues such as Brian's mother referring to Judith as 'that Welsh tart'. Also, there were reports at the time of people being made to sleep in stables because parties unknown had firebombed their holiday homes. Again, a small but forensic clue to the possible involvement of Welsh national extremists.

It was obviously a honey-trap operation and Brian's mother knew it.
 

Cnoc a Leassa

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It's important to remember that these groups represent two very different ideologies and that cohabitation or cooperation wasn't tangible in the long run. While they both strived for the total deconstruction of the imperialist Roman state and all its power structures, they vastly differed in their opinions on what the Romans really did for them. You could say that the PFJ was much more aware of the positive effects the Romans had on the Judean region. Don't be mistaken though, the truly hated the Romans. I mean, they didn't just hate them like everyone else, they hated them a lot. So despite their recognition of Roman improvements, they were still actively sabotaging the Roman government.

That being said, the PFJ explicitly recognized Roman improvements in various areas. One prime example were the aquaducts and sanitation. Unlike most members of the JPF, the leader of the PFJ clearly remembered what the city used to be like before the Romans came into power, suffice it to say that he never wavered on this particular point. It didn't stop there though, the roads go without saying, but there were many more Roman improvements that were actively recognized as such by the PFJ. They were also very vocal and positive about the Roman wine, medicine, public health and irrigation. Most of all, they recognized the fact that the Roman military was probably one of the only known organizations capable of maintaining public order in a place like that. However, despite all of this, they still hated the Romans a lot and often raised the question as to what the Romans had ever done for them.

In contrast, the JPF never even acknowledged these improvements and they were a lot more linear in their thinking. To them anything Roman was despicable. Both ideologies were very uncompromising and this ultimately led to the split between both parties. You could say that the PFJ was a lot less radical in their ideology, eventhough their actions say otherwise.
A conundrum indeed. As you write, an overemphasis on linear thinking does lead to a divergence between thoughts and actions.

I can contribute little to a resolution other than to observe that something of the original clarity may be lost in the choice of words used to translate original sources. It could be relevant to an analysis that several languages were in use at the time; Arameic written left to right, Hebrew written right to left. Adding to the mix was the imperialism driven imposition of Latin. These factors led to a serious confusion within the leadership of the resistance movement, rendering a retrospective linguistic translation as unresolved in my view.

A more politically orientated analysis can be taken from Rome Horatius at the Bridge by
Thomas Babington, Lord Macaulay (1800–1859). The fundamental question, as always, is where is the front of the movement?

Horatius
Was none who would be foremost
To lead such dire attack:
But those behind cried ‘Forward!’
And those before cried ‘Back!’
And backward now and forward
Wavers the deep array;
And on the tossing sea of steel,
To and fro the standards reel;
And the victorious trumpet-peal
Dies fitfully away.

The real life evidence of many centuries of experimentation has not yet provided any clarity as to an answer to the question Does the word front go at the end, the middle or the start of the movement name?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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I think Swift touched on this philosophical question when he considered the possibility of war between peoples, one set preferring to tap the narrower end of their breakfast egg, and those who swore by the rounder end.

There are the cultural connections of course.

 

between the bridges

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I Believe it was Bigus Dickus who cause the spilt... Astra inclinant, sed non obligant...
 

redneck

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Sorry to be party pooper- ZOO this thread.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Tch. The art of political allegory is dead and gone. It is with Healy-Rae in the grave.
 

rainmaker

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Sorry to be party pooper- ZOO this thread.
Splitter!

Seriously though, it's been moved to Political Humour where it belongs. It's a well thought out and well written piece of light relief.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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They should really have been a bit more politically aware back then. I mean, the three wise men from the east. You might say that this is a clue so close to the story of the birth of Jimmy C that it symbolises the debt the story owes to eastern religions such as Zoroastrionism and Manichaeism. The three lads are all dressed as Persians which is a bit of a giveaway.

Then again all three could have been wearing Cardiff United football tops under the long flowing robes and those turbans could just as easily be misrepresented baseball caps turned backwards.

So there could well have been Welsh nationalist involvement right from the start. Bear in mind that some Welsh chapels refer to 'Sion' as in Sion Chapel and it is a big thing is Zion/Sion as a concept, particularly among the beer and singing clubs of the middle east and of course the madrassas of the Welsh hills. It helps to think of them as just a very northerly tribe of Palestine. Not quite as far north as the Lost Tribe of Israel in the guise of Sammy Wilson on the Northern Irish tundra but another Lost Tribe of Sion on the second to last bus stop at the northern end of the route.

Oh the signs are there alright. They have testicles everywhere, the Welsh.
 

Catapulta

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It's well known that the IRA [Roman Imperial Army] was there in a purely peacekeeping role

Rome had no strategic interest in the place at all

But to reassure the Loyal subjects of the Emperor the Roman Governor of Judea made it known 'We haven't gone away you know'
 

Lumpy Talbot

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It was known as a hardship posting to a dusty sh*thole full of religious extremists. The Romans knew this 2,000 years ago. The only benefit to being Governor for a few years was in the backhanders and brown envelope income stream.

Rome was quite comfortable with multi-denominationalism and religious tolerance up until the point the fanatics took over what was left of Rome.
 

Mrs. Crotta Cliach

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Dr. Seuss summed it up succinctly when he pointed it out that some have innies and some have outies, but that consists of all the differences.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Pontius Pilate was an FF appointee. 'Good man yerself, Levi'.

Threw mr jesus under a bus alright. It is a very Fianna Fail story when you think about it. The brown envelope containing the forty pieces of silver. A deeply inappropriate Cumann meeting with very little social distancing involved and undoubtedly the free bar to end all free bars. Wine flowing like water as it were.

If they'd had TV cameras back then I bet the Last Cumann would have had half a dozen glassy eyed stalwarts leaning against each other and propping each other up so the RTE cameras can't see the monumental amount of drink being swallowed in the background. Jamesie's legs give out and down he goes, helped back up in a sort of stagger and is facing the wrong way with his back to camera and has to be turned around.

mr Judas O'Scariot making off with the money into the night. That part of the bible is suspiciously reminiscent of Fianna Fail's worldview.
 

omgsquared

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Pontius Pilate was an FF appointee. 'Good man yerself, Levi'.

Threw mr jesus under a bus alright. It is a very Fianna Fail story when you think about it. The brown envelope containing the forty pieces of silver. A deeply inappropriate Cumann meeting with very little social distancing involved and undoubtedly the free bar to end all free bars. Wine flowing like water as it were.

If they'd had TV cameras back then I bet the Last Cumann would have had half a dozen glassy eyed stalwarts leaning against each other and propping each other up so the RTE cameras can't see the monumental amount of drink being swallowed in the background. Jamesie's legs give out and down he goes, helped back up in a sort of stagger and is facing the wrong way with his back to camera and has to be turned around.

mr Judas O'Scariot making off with the money into the night. That part of the bible is suspiciously reminiscent of Fianna Fail's worldview.
So I gather you are not a FF, FG , or for that matter a UK Tory or Labour supporter?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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That's right.
 

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