• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please us viua the Contact us link in the footer.

What was access to our fishing stocks worth to Europe?


returning officer

Active member
Joined
Jan 27, 2006
Messages
139
Much has been made of the fact we have recived €17bn in EU/EC/EEC structural and cohesion funds over the last 35 years. (http://www.iro.ie/EU-structural-funds.html) The argument now being expressed after the Lisbon vote as we took the money and ran. There were also billions in cap payments (how much were these?).

Our biggest contribution to the rest of the EU was access to our fishing stock (or rape of the Irish box if one wants to use emotive language). Can anyone quantify this?

(It was raised on another thread, but the poster who claimed it was worth €60bn appears unable to back up the claim)(and yes I have tried google).
 


Joined
Dec 2, 2006
Messages
59
Re: What was access or our fishing stocks worth to Europe?

The difference between what Ireland paid in and what Ireland recieved back since 1973 has been 55 billion euros
 

Sidewinder

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
442
Re: What was access or our fishing stocks worth to Europe?

I'm not sure you could quantify it. After all, the fast-and-loose attitudes of the Spanish fleet in particular is legendary. God only knows just how much fish they have taken over the decades or what they sold it for - you can be certain they only officially declared a fraction of it.

Many billions, certainly, but I'd say any estimate you find would be pure guesswork.
 

codology

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
388
This is always going to be guesswork and this is'nt the plaice to guess it.
 

returning officer

Active member
Joined
Jan 27, 2006
Messages
139
codology said:
This is always going to be guesswork and this is'nt the plaice to guess it.
Oh no, what have I done? Now unleash post after post of the salmon of knowledge, hook line and sinker, ray of hope, european sharks, turning to a different tuna and indeed codology.

Actuaries, economist and even spoofers have been able to quantify anything. What is the best guestimate of what access to Irish waters has amounted to? I presume less than €55bn?
 

willanto

Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
5
i was looking for this info a couple of weeks ago. only place i could find it when i googled it was sinn fein website said 36billion.
 

Sidewinder

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
442
I think the mere fact that nobody cared enough to keep track is extremely revealing, myself.
 

Dasayev

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
2,823
We're probably talking about billions

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/seascapes/1160715.html

Seascapes said:
Spanish Demand for Fish Increases
The extent of the Spanish seafood industry is shown in new statistics from the country's Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, which indicate that the population of 41 million consumed 1.6 million tonnes of fish last year. A consumer survey showed that Spaniards are eating 36.7kg of fish each and that their consumption is dominated by a demand for fresh products. On average, Spanish consumers eat seafood on ten days of each month, according to the survey, which also shows that they prefer to buy it fresh from a traditional fishmonger. Women eat more fish than men in Spain. Health concerns are the primary motivation for eating fish. Eight out of ten shoppers indicated that they bought fish as a healthy product. Four out of ten said they believed that the quality of frozen fish was not as good as fresh.

The value of the Spanish seafood industry has been put at around €10 billion, which perhaps underlines the importance of their catching sector and the determination of the Spanish to get dominant access to EU fishing grounds.

I have been in Spain a number of times and wondered how much of the fish being served there has come from Irish waters, particularly the smaller fish which are considered a delicacy.

The extent of their fishing/seafood industry shows what we have lost by the inane stupidity of successive Irish Governments. The most culpable are those who negotiated away our fishing rights and on whom a heavy burden of blame should rest. We have lost economically and socially as a result. Just look at the problems of our fishing industry and the coastal communities. It was the politicians who failed them. The blame for the present situation is squarely on the shoulders of the Government. Let there be no doubt about that.
 

cactus flower

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
75
Dasayev said:
We're probably talking about billions

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/seascapes/1160715.html

Seascapes said:
Spanish Demand for Fish Increases
The extent of the Spanish seafood industry is shown in new statistics from the country's Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, which indicate that the population of 41 million consumed 1.6 million tonnes of fish last year. A consumer survey showed that Spaniards are eating 36.7kg of fish each and that their consumption is dominated by a demand for fresh products. On average, Spanish consumers eat seafood on ten days of each month, according to the survey, which also shows that they prefer to buy it fresh from a traditional fishmonger. Women eat more fish than men in Spain. Health concerns are the primary motivation for eating fish. Eight out of ten shoppers indicated that they bought fish as a healthy product. Four out of ten said they believed that the quality of frozen fish was not as good as fresh.

The value of the Spanish seafood industry has been put at around €10 billion, which perhaps underlines the importance of their catching sector and the determination of the Spanish to get dominant access to EU fishing grounds.

I have been in Spain a number of times and wondered how much of the fish being served there has come from Irish waters, particularly the smaller fish which are considered a delicacy.

The extent of their fishing/seafood industry shows what we have lost by the inane stupidity of successive Irish Governments. The most culpable are those who negotiated away our fishing rights and on whom a heavy burden of blame should rest. We have lost economically and socially as a result. Just look at the problems of our fishing industry and the coastal communities. It was the politicians who failed them. The blame for the present situation is squarely on the shoulders of the Government. Let there be no doubt about that.
The fishing grounds (provided not fished out under EU management) will have a value indefinitely into the future. Ireland is now a net contributor to the EU. The only question is when will the total value of the Irish fisheries ceded to the EU exceed the amount of EU moneys received by Ireland.
 

merle haggard

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
5,497
nobody was even keeping an eye on them , there were no checks worth speaking of . Pretty much a free for all . if at a conservative estimate french and spanish fishing fleets much larger than ours hoovered up 2 billion per annum in irish fishstocks with no effective monitoring and repeatedly ramming our boats in our own waters then 60 billion is a conservative estimate for the aggressive and largely unmonitored plunder of our resources .

but lets start facotring in the fact shell has now secured further billions of our natural gas resources and has sold them in advance to belgium , whilst we dont see a penny of that either . if they want to start balancing books nows a bloody good time to start .
 

KingKane

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
2,326
Website
www.danielsullivan.ie
Twitter
kingkane
Sidewinder said:
I think the mere fact that nobody cared enough to keep track is extremely revealing, myself.
The reason we took the deal was that we didn't have an existing fishing fleet large enough to take advantage of the area we had while we did have a farming sector that could benefit. So in effect we let the fishing sector be done over to let the farmers prosper.
 

merle haggard

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
5,497
KingKane said:
Sidewinder said:
I think the mere fact that nobody cared enough to keep track is extremely revealing, myself.
The reason we took the deal was that we didn't have an existing fishing fleet large enough to take advantage of the area we had while we did have a farming sector that could benefit. So in effect we let the fishing sector be done over to let the farmers prosper.
we let a sustainable resource be plundered rather than seek to develop it as an industry . The sensible thing to do was join and seek funds on the basis we would devlop a fleet and then trade as an equal partner with europe . The farmers wouldnt have been any worse off than before . The reason we took the deal was prbably as much to do with stupidity as corruption . I see no reason why the stupidity of that deal cannot be compared to the stupidity of the deals with shell and Lord Oreilly which need urgent investigation .
Nontheless the argument that we got free money from the EU is null and void .
 
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
12
I don't fully understand this. Can someone explain to me, why we had to give up our fish stocks upon joining the EEC? It doesn't make sense, Luxembourg didn't have any fish stocks, so it didn't have to give up any, Germany had very little, and likewise with the rest of Europe. Why didn't Britain give up their oil stocks?? I mean what was the logic in countries having to give up their fishing stocks in the first place?
 

ibis

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
12,359
The only actual factual basis I've seen for such a calculation is by taking the estimated value of fish caught in the Irish EEZ for a given year, and projecting it back over the 35 years.

Here is an estimate of the value of fish caught in the Irish EEZ in 2004:

Irish catch: €140m
Total catch: €460m
Irish proportion: 30%

If we simply project the €460m figure backwards over 35 years, we arrive at the suspiciously familiar-sounding figure of €16.1 billion - the first figure I remember seeing floated as a value for this. If you were to take the higher figure of €800m/year landed from "waters around Ireland" you get €28 billion - but that includes British and Norwegian waters.

So, the value "the EU" has "taken from us" - well, let's say we lost the value of 70% of that €16.1 bn - €11.27bn worth of fish at 2004 prices. Never mind that the Irish fleet has been in relative decline since 1973 (this being part of the complaint I'm sure no-one will quibble), or that fish used to be relatively cheaper.

How much of a loss does that represent to Irish government finances? Well, for a start, that €11.27 bn is just the value of the fish, not the net earnings of fishing. We can be generous, and assume a 50% margin - and an overall tax rate of 25% on the net earnings. That gives us 25% of €5.635 bn = €1.4 billion lost to the Irish state, over 35 years (€40m per year).

In the same period as the Irish state lost €1.4 billion in revenues from fishing, it gained €17bn in structural funds, and while it lost €11.27bn of fish from its economy (much of which would have gone on imported oil), it gained a total of €55bn from the EU.

The first comparison is probably the more important, since it meant that we didn't have to pay for infrastructure out of our own tax take, which meant lower taxes, which meant encouragement of both indigenous and multinational business. The knock-on effects of a domestic fishing industry would not have provided any such thing.

I appreciate this is slightly back of envelope, but it starts from a solid expert estimate, whose source I have provided. If someone can even begin to provide the calculations behind the other figures, work away.
 

goosebump

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
4,953
QuestionsQuigley said:
I don't fully understand this. Can someone explain to me, why we had to give up our fish stocks upon joining the EEC? It doesn't make sense, Luxembourg didn't have any fish stocks, so it didn't have to give up any, Germany had very little, and likewise with the rest of Europe. Why didn't Britain give up their oil stocks?? I mean what was the logic in countries having to give up their fishing stocks in the first place?
We didn't give up our fish stocks. We agreed to participate in the Common Fisheries Policy with other nations who had territorial waters.

It was a condition of membership.

There was no Common Oil Policy, so no one was required to join it.

And Luxembourg and the UK did give up stuff, primarily hard currency, which found its way into the pockets of Irish farmers and built our roads and railways.
 

dub006

Active member
Joined
Apr 6, 2007
Messages
212
There were several countries that profited hugely from fishing in Irish waters.

Spanish trawlers were owned by consortiums back in spain.
They sent large fleets from coruna and vigo in the north west of spain.

when some were detained they received large fines,seizure of nets and catch.

Nevertheless it was still hugely profitable to keep fishing.

We will never know the full cost but for sure the Irish fishing fleet ,particularly from 1973 to the early '90s was tiny in comparison to other EU country fleets that were fishing in Irish waters.

Also Irish boats were poorly equipped and small in comparison to the other countries boats during that period.
 

dub006

Active member
Joined
Apr 6, 2007
Messages
212
ibis said:
The only actual factual basis I've seen for such a calculation is by taking the estimated value of fish caught in the Irish EEZ for a given year, and projecting it back over the 35 years.

Here is an estimate of the value of fish caught in the Irish EEZ in 2004:

Irish catch: €140m
Total catch: €460m
Irish proportion: 30%

If we simply project the €460m figure backwards over 35 years, we arrive at the suspiciously familiar-sounding figure of €16.1 billion - the first figure I remember seeing floated as a value for this. If you were to take the higher figure of €800m/year landed from "waters around Ireland" you get €28 billion - but that includes British and Norwegian waters.

So, the value "the EU" has "taken from us" - well, let's say we lost the value of 70% of that €16.1 bn - €11.27bn worth of fish at 2004 prices. Never mind that the Irish fleet has been in relative decline since 1973 (this being part of the complaint I'm sure no-one will quibble), or that fish used to be relatively cheaper.

How much of a loss does that represent to Irish government finances? Well, for a start, that €11.27 bn is just the value of the fish, not the net earnings of fishing. We can be generous, and assume a 50% margin - and an overall tax rate of 25% on the net earnings. That gives us 25% of €5.635 bn = €1.4 billion lost to the Irish state, over 35 years (€40m per year).

In the same period as the Irish state lost €1.4 billion in revenues from fishing, it gained €17bn in structural funds, and while it lost €11.27bn of fish from its economy (much of which would have gone on imported oil), it gained a total of €55bn from the EU.

The first comparison is probably the more important, since it meant that we didn't have to pay for infrastructure out of our own tax take, which meant lower taxes, which meant encouragement of both indigenous and multinational business. The knock-on effects of a domestic fishing industry would not have provided any such thing.

I appreciate this is slightly back of envelope, but it starts from a solid expert estimate, whose source I have provided. If someone can even begin to provide the calculations behind the other figures, work away.

The figures above from the source are misleading.

The inpectorate in many countries where fish was landed including spain was completely inadequate and was largely corrupt during the '70s and 80s.
Many trawlers did nt carry log books.
Those that did entered false data .They massively under reported the amount of fish caught.
There was also massive illegal fishing of protected species.

The evidence for the above can be found in court cases during the 70s 80s and 90 s where massive overfishing of legal and protected species ,log book infringements and the large number of boats that had false 'Holds' concealing fish illegally caught.
 

merle haggard

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
5,497
QuestionsQuigley said:
I don't fully understand this. Can someone explain to me, why we had to give up our fish stocks upon joining the EEC? It doesn't make sense, Luxembourg didn't have any fish stocks, so it didn't have to give up any, Germany had very little, and likewise with the rest of Europe. Why didn't Britain give up their oil stocks?? I mean what was the logic in countries having to give up their fishing stocks in the first place?
just because we did doesnt mean we had to . we didnt have to give our oil and gas away for free either .
 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top