What's the big deal about the bailout?

borntorum

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I'd rather be living in a functioning economy that provides for the citizens of the country than bothering over esoteric concerns regarding the nature of national independence and sovereignty (that matter was basically decided when we joined in 1973; everything else is just semantics).

This bailout (assuming it happens and the government doesn't sink the country entirely) should provide us with stability and allow us to concentrate on getting our general finances in order rather than having to constantly worry about stumping cash upfront for the banks. People are getting carried away with the possible repercussions of what a bailout might lead to. The UK received a loan from the IMF in the 1970s, and by the 80s their economy was booming (and nobody seriously claims that British independence ended in 1976). We're never going to recover with this constant crisis of misery and worry - let's take the money and give ourselves the breathing space to sort out the economy once and for all.
 


sondagefaux

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Twould embarrass FF.

IRELAND, WE are led to believe, is a source of endless fascination, no little bafflement and some affection for the Germans. Right now they must be wondering why their chancellor, Angela Merkel, is being blamed for our latest crisis by the Taoiseach when she appears far more in tune with the Irish national mood than he does.

At a very fundamental level, all the German chancellor wants to do is change the rules of global finance so that the investors who lend money to feckless governments and banks must share the cost when things go wrong and thus be incentivised to act more responsibly. It’s a sentiment that pretty much everyone in Ireland would support.

Her proposals have an added populist attraction in Ireland as, inter alia, they would involve the burning of bank bondholders, the cause célèbre of much of the economic commentariat. This is because it is hard to see how Ireland could restructure its own debt – the nub of Merkel’s plan – without also restructuring the debts of the almost completely nationalised banking system.

Merkel must also wonder why the Government and the financial establishment are so opposed to her plan when accessing the European Financial Stability Fund is arguably the best way of getting funds for yet another bank bailout, but this time one that might directly benefit the electorate.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1115/1224283324115.html
 
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oggy

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I think there should be a no strings attached bailout because it was the ECB or whoever went down the road of easy credit and low interest rates. Those outsiders demanding WE bailout eurozone by accepting a bailout to ease the markets should be told to get stuffed and just hand over the money. Biggest revelation in recent times is where the money originally came from to fuel our credit splurge
 

DCon

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I think there should be a no strings attached bailout because it was the ECB or whoever went down the road of easy credit and low interest rates. Those outsiders demanding WE bailout eurozone by accepting a bailout to ease the markets should be told to get stuffed and just hand over the money. Biggest revelation in recent times is where the money originally came from to fuel our credit splurge
And if we were not part of the EUR, Bertie, McCreevy and BIFFO would have maintained prudent interest rates? Please. These same boyos were still dreaming up new development tax breaks only a few moons ago
 

dresden8

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Biggest revelation in recent times is where the money originally came from to fuel our credit splurge
Was that when we were told it came from Irish granny's pension funds? Or the truth we learned 2 years later when Lenny finally ran out of bullsh1t?
 

borntorum

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I think there should be a no strings attached bailout because it was the ECB or whoever went down the road of easy credit and low interest rates. Those outsiders demanding WE bailout eurozone by accepting a bailout to ease the markets should be told to get stuffed and just hand over the money. Biggest revelation in recent times is where the money originally came from to fuel our credit splurge
That's true. What's depressing about the current situation is that our own predicament is so desperate we are unable to properly confront the French and Germans over how much this bust is due to their fault (not neglecting our own primary responsibility of course). Much of the money that our banks used to fund their crazy lending spree came from French and German banks (whose bondholders we are now suffering austerity for).The ludicrously low interest rates that helped create the bubble were in place to aid the then sluggish economies of continental Europe. Larry Elliot of the Guardian has this to say about where the UK economy would be now if they had entered the Eurozone:

For Britain, the crisis shows what life might have been like in the single currency. As in Ireland, interest rates would have been far too low, the housing bubble more colossal, the bust more horrific. UK membership of monetary union is a dead issue, leaving the more interesting question of whether the British government will exploit attempts to neutralise Ireland's corporate tax regime. There is nothing George Osborne would like more than to market the UK as an English-speaking economy that is open to business. Ireland's plight might provide just the opening he wants.
Ireland's crisis puts Germany in the eurozone driving seat | Larry Elliott | Comment is free | The Guardian
 

theghost

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I think there should be a no strings attached bailout because it was the ECB or whoever went down the road of easy credit and low interest rates. Those outsiders demanding WE bailout eurozone by accepting a bailout to ease the markets should be told to get stuffed and just hand over the money. Biggest revelation in recent times is where the money originally came from to fuel our credit splurge
I thought FF supporters had already scraped the bottom of the barrel regarding excuses for their destruction of this economy. How wrong I was. Oggy, you're delusional
 

constitutionus

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the "big deal" is the people who run this country would get a spanking.

BIG time.

youll be pretty much looking at the reversal of ALL social partnership deals going back to the early 90s

TBH the vast majority of the rest of us probably wont notice anything happening to them in a personal way beyond taxes.

most of this wailing from gov is about keeping the gravy flowing for the vested interests.

put simply, its the end of the era of librarians earning 140k a year.
 

borntorum

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the "big deal" is the people who run this country would get a spanking.

BIG time.
That's kind of what Im getting at regards the gnashing of teeth about Irish sovereignty. Other than the government, who ultimately cares?

I don't see much difference in being beholden to the capitalist bond markets or to the EU. In fact, I'd be quite happy for the EU/ECB to come in and supervise our economy for a few years (though I'm under no illusions that they would be doing it solely, or even mainly, for our benefit).
 

oggy

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That's true. What's depressing about the current situation is that our own predicament is so desperate we are unable to properly confront the French and Germans over how much this bust is due to their fault (not neglecting our own primary responsibility of course). Much of the money that our banks used to fund their crazy lending spree came from French and German banks (whose bondholders we are now suffering austerity for).The ludicrously low interest rates that helped create the bubble were in place to aid the then sluggish economies of continental Europe. Larry Elliot of the Guardian has this to say about where the UK economy would be now if they had entered the Eurozone:



Ireland's crisis puts Germany in the eurozone driving seat | Larry Elliott | Comment is free | The Guardian
Good quote. To add to it the UK and US manilupation of the exchange rate against euro is something largely ignored in discussion about whats hit the Irish economy in last 30 months. Another thing is that over the years British media have been very patriotic with their regular sniping at the Irish economy. Our media have made every effort to wash our dirty linen in public whereas the British media have been more calm in commenting on an economic crisis every bit as bad as ours
 

Edo

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I think there should be a no strings attached bailout because it was the ECB or whoever went down the road of easy credit and low interest rates. Those outsiders demanding WE bailout eurozone by accepting a bailout to ease the markets should be told to get stuffed and just hand over the money. Biggest revelation in recent times is where the money originally came from to fuel our credit splurge
That is up there with the most pathetic posts Ive seen here in a long time - pathetic.

We were warned going into the Eurozone - there was a big debate about it at the time and the pluses and minuses were weighted up and on balance it was a good idea - if we managed our economy prudently and got our economic cycle into sync with Germany and the central eurozone as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately we were led by Bertie Ahern and Charlie (when I have it - I'll spend it) McCreevey - whos economic philosophy was totally built around having lots of goodies to shower around about 9 months before an election - our economy was built around the election cycle.

looking back - for all those tossers who appear to have no idea how things have come to this - here are my first 2 posts ever on the web from back in 2006 over at AAM - on the same page

Irish economy - are there clouds ahead? - Page 2 - Askaboutmoney.com


dont say ye werent warned - the Eurozone and access to chea credit could have been properly managed and the funds directed into productive next generation exports industries - but no - the Bacon report was chucked in the bin in 2002 - the tax breaks enlarged on property development and speculation and this is why "we are where we are" - gobsh^tes one and all

do you think that this money grew on trees in the courtyard of the ECB? - it came from hard working German and French workers who saved their money and thru their banks invested their savings for their retirements in the Irish economy - boy we were some investment weren't we? - they are the bondholders - not some mythical Dr Evil types.

there is going to be an orderly euro-default and restructuring in the not -too distant future - but it will on the ECBS and Merkels terms and I agree with that.

Fianna Fail are being hoist on a petard of their own making - looking at it now - the IMF will restore Irish "Sovereignty" a lot sooner than any of those jokers in FF who have brought us to this - they have shown the financial acumen of a 12 year old who gets daddy's credit card and cleans out the local off-licence..

There is responsibility here - a word that is alien to the FF vocabulary - its them blueshirts,pinkos,foreigners, elites etc etc ..........anybody but ourselves - you FFers make me sick.

Pathetic post!
 
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oggy

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That is up there with the most pathetic posts Ive seen here in a long time - pathetic.

We were warned going into the Eurozone - there was a big debate about it at the time and the pluses and minuses were weighted up and on balance it was a good idea - if we managed our economy prudently and got our economic cycle into sync with Germany and the central eurozone as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately we were led by Bertie Ahern and Charlie (when I have it - I'll spend it) McCreevey - whos economic philosophy was totally built around having lots of goodies to shower around about 9 months before an election - our economy was built around the election cycle.

looking back - for all those tossers who appear to have no idea how things have come to his - here are my first 2 posts ever on the web from back in 2006 over at AAM

Irish economy - are there clouds ahead? - Page 2 - Askaboutmoney.com

Irish economy - are there clouds ahead? - Page 2 - Askaboutmoney.com

dont say ye werent warned - the Eurozone and access to chea credit could have been properly managed and the funds directed into productive next generation exports industries - but no - the Bacon report was chucked in the bin in 2002 - the tax breaks enlarged on property development and speculation and this is why "we are where we are" - gobsh^tes one and all

do you think that this money grew on trees in the courtyard of the ECB? - it came from hard working German and French workers who saved their money and thru their banks invested their savings for their retirements in the Irish economy - boy we were some investment weren't we? - they are the bondholders - not some mythical Dr Evil types.

there is going to be an orderly euro-default and restructuring in the not -too distant future - but it will on the ECBS and Merkels terms and I agree with that.

Fianna Fail are being hoist on a petard of their own making - looking at it now - the IMF will restore Irish "Sovereignty" a lot sooner than any of those jokers in FF who have brought us to this - they have shown the financial acumen of a 12 year old who gets daddy's credit card and cleans out the local off-licence..

There is responsibility here - a word that is alien to the FF vocabulary - its them blueshirts,pinkos,foreigners, elites etc etc ..........anybody but ourselves - you FFers make me sick.

Pathetic post!
Pathetic ?
You blame FF on wasting the money received but you at same time see no problem with those who loaned that money ? That is the most pathetic contradiction I have witnessed in a while
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

That is up there with the most pathetic posts Ive seen here in a long time - pathetic.

We were warned going into the Eurozone - there was a big debate about it at the time and the pluses and minuses were weighted up and on balance it was a good idea - if we managed our economy prudently and got our economic cycle into sync with Germany and the central eurozone as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately we were led by Bertie Ahern and Charlie (when I have it - I'll spend it) McCreevey - whos economic philosophy was totally built around having lots of goodies to shower around about 9 months before an election - our economy was built around the election cycle.

looking back - for all those tossers who appear to have no idea how things have come to his - here are my first 2 posts ever on the web from back in 2006 over at AAM

Irish economy - are there clouds ahead? - Page 2 - Askaboutmoney.com

Irish economy - are there clouds ahead? - Page 2 - Askaboutmoney.com

dont say ye werent warned - the Eurozone and access to chea credit could have been properly managed and the funds directed into productive next generation exports industries - but no - the Bacon report was chucked in the bin in 2002 - the tax breaks enlarged on property development and speculation and this is why "we are where we are" - gobsh^tes one and all

do you think that this money grew on trees in the courtyard of the ECB? - it came from hard working German and French workers who saved their money and thru their banks invested their savings for their retirements in the Irish economy - boy we were some investment weren't we? - they are the bondholders - not some mythical Dr Evil types.

there is going to be an orderly euro-default and restructuring in the not -too distant future - but it will on the ECBS and Merkels terms and I agree with that.

Fianna Fail are being hoist on a petard of their own making - looking at it now - the IMF will restore Irish "Sovereignty" a lot sooner than any of those jokers in FF who have brought us to this - they have shown the financial acumen of a 12 year old who gets daddy's credit card and cleans out the local off-licence..

There is responsibility here - a word that is alien to the FF vocabulary - its them blueshirts,pinkos,foreigners, elites etc etc ..........anybody but ourselves - you FFers make me sick.

Pathetic post!
Yet for some reason Investments, while risky, must now be paid for by others when they go belly up! Is capitalism beneath the Germans and French now?
 

Edo

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Yet for some reason Investments, while risky, must now be paid for by others when they go belly up! Is capitalism beneath the Germans and French now?

The rest of your post is, pretty much, spot on.
Dont you worry - those bondholders are going to take a bath - but it will be an organised bath when everybody jumps together - it will happen on Europes terms - not the bondmarkets - Merkel has been softening the German people up for this for the last couple of months.... it will happen

But we are going to pay for Ahern and McCreevey's arrogance when they pranced around Europe lecturing the rest of them and particularly Germany that they were living in the last century..........

you reap what you sow................and the main problem here is the bank guarantee............Europe did not want this...........but we went solo on it anyway and forced everybody else to get on board to stop runs on banks in their countries - if we had restricted that guarantee to deposit holders only - we would not be in the situation we are in.

the germans have already taken responsibility for German banks operating in our IFSC - they could have washed their hands of it - but they took it on and took billions of debt off our hands.

the sad problem here is that in the real world of real politik - we are the bank customer that borrowed 10 grand - the bank owns us - all our billions dont add up to a hill of beans in the EU wide scenario - we dont have any investments, warships or strategic value of leverage - maybe threathening to leave the Eurozone might have some effect - but I think we might be shoved out the door there anyway if we tried - and our debts will remain in euros and the degree of forgiveness we get might be thin.

Time to take our medicine and get on with it - FF have dug this hole and left us where we are.
 

GDPR

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There is responsibility here - a word that is alien to the FF vocabulary - its them blueshirts,pinkos,foreigners, elites etc etc ..........anybody but ourselves - you FFers make me sick.

Pathetic post!
Very selective potted history there.

Try not to do that projectile stuff when you're getting sick, it might bounce back off the mirror.
 

JCR

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I think there should be a no strings attached bailout because it was the ECB or whoever went down the road of easy credit and low interest rates. Those outsiders demanding WE bailout eurozone by accepting a bailout to ease the markets should be told to get stuffed and just hand over the money. Biggest revelation in recent times is where the money originally came from to fuel our credit splurge
This is the latest gombeen bunch of lies from FF in the hope the citizens will be stupid enough to swallow it and in so doing lket FF continue to drag our country back to the backward gombeen bog antics of Cowen and the rest of the ignorant buffoons of FF. 'Let's find a scapegoat so we can stay in power and keep draining the country for ourselves and our friends'. This is the reason Cowen is lying about the impending bailout - FF will try to say, 'we didnt want one, the EU made us sell our sovereignity' (the new brits probably, like Dev the fool - declaring economic war against our biggest trading partner). There are stupid citizens who will buy this, and FF know this, it is the last gombeen attempt of FF to cling to power. It is also a total and complete lie. This country is in the state it is in not because of the EU or ECB rates. Ireland lies beaten and embarrassed directly because of the corruption of FF and the total incompetence of FF arising from their gombeen total ignorance. The ignorance of that section of citizens too stupid to see a lie when it stares them in the face is what FF are trying to bank on now. Because only a gombeen or an ignoramus could actually be an apologist for these thieves now. Oggy you are in actual fact a disgrace to your country along with all the rest of the ignorant gombeen FF apologists on this site and everywhere else.
 

Edo

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Very selective potted history there.

Try not to do that projectile stuff when you're getting sick, it might bounce back off the mirror.
Good ole Tonic - when you nothing left to say - a good ad-hominen will have to do.
 

JCR

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Pathetic ?
You blame FF on wasting the money received but you at same time see no problem with those who loaned that money ? That is the most pathetic contradiction I have witnessed in a while
:lol: You and the ignorant gombeen apologists for FF are now trying to cast the EU as the enemy when in fact it is the EU who forwarded the idea of bondholders sharing the pain while FF bankrupted the country for the sake of these bondholders. More complete lies. Do you even know what what a contridiction is or are you that much of a gombeen? You know who loaned that money to rubbish 'developers'? THE IRISH BANKS. You know who turned a blind eye while lining their own greasy little pockets? FF.
 
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GDPR

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:lol: You and the ignorant gombeen apologists for FF are now trying to cast the EU as the enemy when in fact it is the EU who forwarded the idea of bondholders sharing the pain
What an idiot you are.

The "pain sharing" from the EU, as proposed, is due to start after 2013, they sang a different tune in 2008 and for the last two years.
 


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