What's the protcol for President or Taoiseach attending funerals?

Disillusioned democrat

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I've often wondered what's the protocol in a republic for the head of state or prime minister to attend peoples' funerals.

Coming so shortly after the election where media bias was apparent for weeks, Keelin Shanley's funeral was attended by both President and Taoiseach.

It struck me as strange, to be honest, and plays to a sense that the media here are far too important and close to the elected leaders.

With absolutely no disrespect meant to Shanley's untimely death, in the eyes of the state, why is her funeral more important than anyone elses?
 


A Voice

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It struck me, too. Higgins loves the attention, of course, and will pop up anywhere with his entourage.
Varadkar should be up to more important stuff at this juncture.
Very sad for Shanley's family. She was a gentle one in a pushy profession.
 

wombat

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Politicians go to many funerals but they are not considered news items.
 

Buchaill Dana

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I've often wondered what's the protocol in a republic for the head of state or prime minister to attend peoples' funerals.

Coming so shortly after the election where media bias was apparent for weeks, Keelin Shanley's funeral was attended by both President and Taoiseach.

It struck me as strange, to be honest, and plays to a sense that the media here are far too important and close to the elected leaders.

With absolutely no disrespect meant to Shanley's untimely death, in the eyes of the state, why is her funeral more important than anyone elses?
Maybe both the Taoiseach and President personally knew her?
 

Baron von Biffo

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RTE referred to Varadkar at the funeral as the Taoiseach.

Varadkar is no longer Taoiseach since he advised the President of the disbandment of the Dáil.

Am I correct?
No.

The Taoiseach and ministers remain in office until they're replaced.

If, as seems likely, Varadkar loses the vote on his nomination as Taoiseach on the first day of the new Dail he will have to resign. That resignation doesn't come into effect until he's replaced and until that happens he retains all the powers and prerogatives of the office.
 

CatullusV

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RTE referred to Varadkar at the funeral as the Taoiseach.

Varadkar is no longer Taoiseach since he advised the President of the disbandment of the Dáil.

Am I correct?
He disbanded the Dáil, but the government remains in place in a hobbled form until it is replaced. There has to be someone in charge in the event of a national emergency. The cabinet won't meet and to an extent the Civil Service assumes a role in continuing the serene progress of MV Eireann. Nor can any Money Bills or any type of extra spending be slipped through.

In answer to the OP, the Pres and Varadkar have the usual personal discretion to attend funerals. I'm unclear as to whether they were there in an official basis. It could be that they they knew her well enough to want to pay their respects. Their positions shouldn't prevent them from attending funerals in their own right.

I think that for funerals where convention dictates his presence the president will attend, or send his Aide-de-Camp if he cannot.
 

CatullusV

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No.

The Taoiseach and ministers remain in office until they're replaced.

If, as seems likely, Varadkar loses the vote on his nomination as Taoiseach on the first day of the new Dail he will have to resign. That resignation doesn't come into effect until he's replaced and until that happens he retains all the powers and prerogatives of the office.
Not quite all powers, but you are are 98% on the button.

Given the potential replacements I will be sorry to see him go, and I'm far from being a FGer.
 

Buchaill Dana

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RTE referred to Varadkar at the funeral as the Taoiseach.

Varadkar is no longer Taoiseach since he advised the President of the disbandment of the Dáil.

Am I correct?
You are not
 

Baron von Biffo

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He disbanded the Dáil, but the government remains in place in a hobbled form until it is replaced. There has to be someone in charge in the event of a national emergency. The cabinet won't meet and to an extent the Civil Service assumes a role in continuing the serene progress of MV Eireann.
The cabinet did meet in the course of this election though I believe that's not the norm. I can't find the detail but I think it had something to do with Brexit.

Ministers also retain their authority as evidenced by Eoghan Murphy signing the ministerial order to re-instate the election in Tipperary.

Outgoing ministers who know they won't be returning usually also fill any vacancies in public bodies under their control before their departure.

Nor can any Money Bills or any type of extra spending be slipped through.

[...]
No bill of any type can go through since there's no Dail to pass it.
 

CatullusV

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What powers don't they have?
They lose legislative powers, but still retain the necessary backstop of some executive and essential administrative powers. After the dissolution, to take one example, instruments had to be drawn up in order to formalise the date of the election. This could only be done by the cabinet.
 
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CatullusV

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The cabinet did meet in the course of this election though I believe that's not the norm. I can't find the detail but I think it had something to do with Brexit.

Ministers also retain their authority as evidenced by Eoghan Murphy signing the ministerial order to re-instate the election in Tipperary.

Outgoing ministers who know they won't be returning usually also fill any vacancies in public bodies under their control before their departure.



No bill of any type can go through since there's no Dail to pass it.
Not all government actions require the assent of an Dáil. There are powers reserved to the government which are necessary for the smooth transition to a new government.
 

Baron von Biffo

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They lose legislative powers, but still retain the necessary backstop of some executive and essential administrative powers. After the dissolution, to take one example, instruments had to be drawn up in order to formalise the date of the election. This could only be done by the cabinet.
Ministers never have legislative powers. All legislative authority is constitutionally vested in the Oireachtas.

In relation to ministerial status between governments, Art. 28.11.2 says:-

"The members of the Government in office at
the date of a dissolution of Dáil Éireann shall
continue to hold office until their successors shall
have been appointed."


There's no qualification or restriction in that. Every ministerial power they had when the Dail was dissolved, they hold until they're replaced.

Not all government actions require the assent of an Dáil. There are powers reserved to the government which are necessary for the smooth transition to a new government.
But the ministers retain all their powers, not just those necessary for the transition. In addition to the two examples I gave earlier, you'll recall that Dick Roche signed an order allowing the controversial Tara section of the M3 to proceed even as government formation talks with the Greens (who opposed it) were going on.
 

CatullusV

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Ministers never have legislative powers. All legislative authority is constitutionally vested in the Oireachtas.

In relation to ministerial status between governments, Art. 28.11.2 says:-

"The members of the Government in office at
the date of a dissolution of Dáil Éireann shall
continue to hold office until their successors shall
have been appointed."


There's no qualification or restriction in that. Every ministerial power they had when the Dail was dissolved, they hold until they're replaced.



But the ministers retain all their powers, not just those necessary for the transition. In addition to the two examples I gave earlier, you'll recall that Dick Roche signed an order allowing the controversial Tara section of the M3 to proceed even as government formation talks with the Greens (who opposed it) were going on.
I'm not sure whether or not you are being deliberately obtuse here. As I thought I'd made clear, there must be a government. That means that all of the authorities associated with that must remain in place. There is no two ways about that. If a crisis struck, the country would not be served well by doubts surrounding the competency of a minister or a Taoiseach to take action. But the powers *are* constrained to an extent. In effect, the government cannot present bills or put in place legislation which requires the consent of Dáil Éireann.

I'm speaking of practice and convention. The powers of the government are constrained.

Bunreacht and any sensible constitution would always reserve the rights of a sitting government until a replacement is in place. It ensures contingency and continuity. It must be like that. However, it adapts a passive role in effect and it knows that its legislative days are behind it.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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I've often wondered what's the protocol in a republic for the head of state or prime minister to attend peoples' funerals.

Coming so shortly after the election where media bias was apparent for weeks, Keelin Shanley's funeral was attended by both President and Taoiseach.

It struck me as strange, to be honest, and plays to a sense that the media here are far too important and close to the elected leaders.

With absolutely no disrespect meant to Shanley's untimely death, in the eyes of the state, why is her funeral more important than anyone elses?
They will have met her through the course of their work. That they attended is probably a reflection of the regard in which they held Ms Shanley. There are no votes in this, unlike the politicians popping in and out of funerals up and down the country.
 

Gin Soaked

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RTE referred to Varadkar at the funeral as the Taoiseach.

Varadkar is no longer Taoiseach since he advised the President of the disbandment of the Dáil.

Am I correct?
No. Stunningly wrong.

He could lose his seat and still be Taoiseach. When he resigns, he is still Taoiseach and the ministers are still ministers till new ones are voted on. He and ministers are still answerable to the new dail.

Convention dictates that he will consult party leaders before he does anything. And should do little.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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No.

The Taoiseach and ministers remain in office until they're replaced.

If, as seems likely, Varadkar loses the vote on his nomination as Taoiseach on the first day of the new Dail he will have to resign. That resignation doesn't come into effect until he's replaced and until that happens he retains all the powers and prerogatives of the office.
Are ministers who were not re-elected as TDs allowed to speak in the Dail. If so, are
Ministers never have legislative powers. All legislative authority is constitutionally vested in the Oireachtas.

In relation to ministerial status between governments, Art. 28.11.2 says:-

"The members of the Government in office at
the date of a dissolution of Dáil Éireann shall
continue to hold office until their successors shall
have been appointed."


There's no qualification or restriction in that. Every ministerial power they had when the Dail was dissolved, they hold until they're replaced.



But the ministers retain all their powers, not just those necessary for the transition. In addition to the two examples I gave earlier, you'll recall that Dick Roche signed an order allowing the controversial Tara section of the M3 to proceed even as government formation talks with the Greens (who opposed it) were going on.
Interestingly, Bunreacht says -

the members of each house of the oireachtas shall, except in case of treason as defined in this constitution, felony or breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest in going to and returning from, and while within the precincts of, either house, and shall not, in respect of any utterance in either house, be amenable to any court or any authority other than the house itself.

Does this mean that Ministers who are no longer TDs are not covered by the full protection of privilege?
 


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