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What's the protocol on losing a Budget vote ?


cyberianpan

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There's a serious risk that this government may go down to the wire on a budget.

Thus what is the protocol on losing the vote on a money bill ? I know it means the government is deemed sunk... but just when ? Is it up to the President to decide, or is a full Dáil vote of no confidence needed ?

Could they vote in another budget 24 hours later ?

I ask this as I see a likely scenario:

  1. - budget vote going down to the wire
  2. - FF forced to/agreeing on election
  3. - FG aiding the passage of a budget, with election straight after
because the alternate scenario

  1. - budget vote going down to the wire
  2. - government falling without any budget
  3. - thus no budget until February
would be a horrible mess

cYp
 

GDPR

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There's a serious risk that this government may go down to the wire on a budget.

Thus what is the protocol on losing the vote on a money bill ? I know it means the government is deemed sunk... but just when ? Is it up to the President to decide, or is a full Dáil vote of no confidence needed ?

Could they vote in another budget 24 hours later ?

I ask this as I see a likely scenario:

  1. - budget vote going down to the wire
  2. - FF forced to/agreeing on election
  3. - FG aiding the passage of a budget, with election straight after
because the alternate scenario

  1. - budget vote going down to the wire
  2. - government falling without any budget
  3. - thus no budget until February
would be a horrible mess

cYp
FG & J Bruton would be your best bet for information there, been there, done that.

You can't beat experience.
 

corelli

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There is no difference as between losing a vote on a money bill and on any other. The Constitution only says that the President may refuse a dissolution of the Dail to a Taoiseach who does not retain the confidence of the Dail, ie after loosing a confidence motion.
 

ballot stuffer

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There is no difference as between losing a vote on a money bill and on any other. The Constitution only says that the President may refuse a dissolution of the Dail to a Taoiseach who does not retain the confidence of the Dail, ie after loosing a confidence motion.
I was under the impression a failed budget vote or loss of supply situation meant the Taoiseach must seek a dissolution of the Dail?
 

cyberianpan

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There is no difference as between losing a vote on a money bill and on any other. The Constitution only says that the President may refuse a dissolution of the Dail to a Taoiseach who does not retain the confidence of the Dail, ie after loosing a confidence motion.
All the Bunreacht references to "money bills" seem to be about the Seanad having to play nice (articles 20-26) - and that the President can't refuse it:
BUNREACHT NA hIREANN

Though I do recall something - perhaps in statute - about the government not being meant to lose a money bill ... and there was hoopla this year when they nearly did...

Thsi Revenue doc says
http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/foi/s16/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-and-corporation-tax/misc/misc-13.pdf&rct=j&
The Interpretation Act 2005 governs all legislation by the Oireachtas and is an essential reference text at the drafting stage of the Finance Bill process.
...
The Opposition may seek to amend or simply oppose a Financial Resolution and may call for a division or vote. The defeat of a Budget day Financial Resolution effectively represents a vote of no confidence in the Government and would normally result in the Taoiseach requesting the President to dissolve the Dáil and the calling of a general election.
cYp
 
Last edited:

kerdasi amaq

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I'd imagine that the government would call a "vote of confidence" if they were defeated on a budget vote. Lose that, then it's a trip to the Arás.
 

Chrisco

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the alternate scenario

  1. - budget vote going down to the wire
  2. - government falling without any budget
  3. - thus no budget until February
would be a horrible mess

cYp
That is why we need an election first.
 

dotski_w_

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FG & J Bruton would be your best bet for information there, been there, done that.

You can't beat experience.
IIRC that was the Finance Bill (which, inter alia, gives legislative effect to the Budget speech, but generally takes about 3 months to pass).

As I understand it, a defeat on the Budget would result in the fall of the govt, in the same way as a vote of no confidence. Taoiseach would be required to go to the Aras seeking a dissolution of the Dail, she would either accept, or (somewhat more unlikely) ask another TD to try to form a new Govt.
 

dotski_w_

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Though I do recall something - perhaps in statute - about the government not being meant to lose a money bill ... and there was hoopla this year when they nearly did...

cYp
Govt denied that it was a money bill (it wa a technical point that was never tested) - had GLee not resigned, the opposition would have been able to test that assertion.... or if Alex White had won the bye-election....
 

rockofcashel

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I am not sure what the "de jure" position is, but the "de facto position" is simple. If you lose a "money" bill i.e. you cannot pass a budget, then you stand down and dissolve the Dail. The most basic function of Government is revenue raising. If it does not have the confidence of the House to raise revenue, it stands down.

I personally think this is where the Government will fall. I cannot see them passing a budget, given the level of cuts likely. And, I also think it'll be FF rebels minding their seats who will eventually pull the plug.
 

Chrisco

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I also think it'll be FF rebels minding their seats who will eventually pull the plug.
In typical Fianna Fail fashion causing maximum damage to our repuation and economy.
 

cyberianpan

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Govt denied that it was a money bill (it wa a technical point that was never tested) - had GLee not resigned, the opposition would have been able to test that assertion.... or if Alex White had won the bye-election....
Question is if there's some statute here

If there's not... then it's all up to the President and a deal can be cut... if there is statute... it could make things very murky

cYp
 

dotski_w_

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Question is if there's some statute here

If there's not... then it's all up to the President and a deal can be cut... if there is statute... it could make things very murky

cYp
pretty sure President has absolute discretion to refuse a dissolution .... well, that's my "mature recollection".....
 

Magror14

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I recall the Fine Gael Coalition fell in or about 1981 after its budget failed due to Bruton's tax on children's shoes. The ensuing election may have had more to do with the fact that the government may have been relying on independents (Jim Kemmy?) who had abandoned them. Even so it is hard to see how any parliamentary government could hope to stay in power after failing to get a budget passed.
 

cyberianpan

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pretty sure President has absolute discretion to refuse a dissolution .... well, that's my "mature recollection".....
:D

That they do... though there was an awful muddle over just what absolute discretion is !

Hopefully anyway there's no statute about money bills...
 

Oldira1

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That would mean an election during Christmas week or early January can't see that happening. Govt will fall over Finance bill with a February election. Unless budget is moved forward a week or two
 

Magror14

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pretty sure President has absolute discretion to refuse a dissolution .... well, that's my "mature recollection".....
Yes this is correct but there is absolutely NO WAY she would do so in this scenario because the numbers would not be there to form a solid alternative government (unlike the time when the Rainbow were formed in the 1990's)
 

Chrisco

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That would mean an election during Christmas week or early January can't see that happening. Govt will fall over Finance bill with a February election. Unless budget is moved forward a week or two
Jan 11th would be the latest I think.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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It should be remembered that in case of a tie, the CC casts the deciding vote and is obliged to vote with the govt.
dotski_w said:
pretty sure President has absolute discretion to refuse a dissolution .... well, that's my "mature recollection".....
She has absolute discretion but only if the govt lacks the support of a Dail majority.
 
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