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When and why did Ulster Unionists stop refering to themselves as Irish

Had 327

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I believe it was shortly after Ireland was partitioned into NI and the Irish Free State, but can not find much historical reference on this.
 


DT123

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I believe it was shortly after Ireland was partitioned into NI and the Irish Free State, but can not find much historical reference on this.
Ulster unionists are quite happy to call themselves Northern Irish. Check out the last census
 
O

Oscurito

Yon's a movable feast.

Ulster cows were keen to be "Irish" when Blighty's bovines were afflicted with BSE and foot and mouth disease.
 

former wesleyan

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I believe it was shortly after Ireland was partitioned into NI and the Irish Free State, but can not find much historical reference on this.
Generational thing in many cases. My grandmother , born in 1886 , always referred to herself as Irish.
 

Had 327

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Ulster unionists are quite happy to call themselves Northern Irish. Check out the last census
I already know this, but its always that specification "Northern Irish" for Northern Ireland- being careful to note they are distinct from the rest of the island.
 

Had 327

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Cruimh

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I already know this, but its always that specification "Northern Irish" for Northern Ireland- being careful to note they are distinct from the rest of the island.
I think this depends on context. The OO continues to be administered by The Grand Orange of Ireland. The Anglican church isn't referred to as the Church of Northern Ireland.

The difficulty, I would suggest, arose with the chauvinistic identification of Ireland ( and thus "Irish") with Roman Catholicism and völkisch (gaelic) Nationalism, reinforced by speeches such as those by Cosgrave in 1930 and by De Valera - his 1935 St Patrick's day address - 'Ireland remains a Catholic nation'. And of course Catholic nation to de Valera meant all of Northern Ireland, which most definitely was not a Catholic nation.
 

Had 327

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I think this depends on context. The OO continues to be administered by The Grand Orange of Ireland. The Anglican church isn't referred to as the Church of Northern Ireland.

The difficulty, I would suggest, arose with the chauvinistic identification of Ireland ( and thus "Irish") with Roman Catholicism and völkisch (gaelic) Nationalism, reinforced by speeches such as those by Cosgrave in 1930 and by De Valera - his 1935 St Patrick's day address - 'Ireland remains a Catholic nation'. And of course Catholic nation to de Valera meant all of Northern Ireland, which most definitely was not a Catholic nation.
Interesting Cruimh, it seems that Gaelic Nationalism hasn't been very helpful in making the PUL community associate themselves with Ireland. Would you consider yourself Irish?
 

CastleRay

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I'm proudly Irish. I just don't equate Irish with hating the British, being exclusive of Britishness, being exclusively Gaelic or Catholic or Nationalist. Irish is a lot wider than the Nat view of the Eire state and what it represents. It's on here all the time where people who criticise the GAA are "anti-Irish" or considered to hate things that are "Irish".

As the name Ireland and the Irish identity was seen as belonging to an alien and exclusive ideology / identity over many years since partition, but mainly since the troubles, many Unionists in this part of Ireland have rejected and/or denied an Irish identity.
 

hollandia

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I'm proudly Irish. I just don't equate Irish with hating the British, being exclusive of Britishness, being exclusively Gaelic or Catholic or Nationalist. Irish is a lot wider than the Nat view of the Eire state and what it represents. It's on here all the time where people who criticise the GAA are "anti-Irish" or considered to hate things that are "Irish".

As the name Ireland and the Irish identity was seen as belonging to an alien and exclusive ideology / identity over many years since partition, but mainly since the troubles, many Unionists in this part of Ireland have rejected and/or denied an Irish identity.
Neither do most Irish people. You have a warped sense of what the rest of us believe. Criticism of the GAA for example, where warranted, I have no problem with. Manufactured outrage, on the otherhand...
 

Cruimh

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Interesting Cruimh, it seems that Gaelic Nationalism hasn't been very helpful in making the PUL community associate themselves with Ireland. Would you consider yourself Irish?
Yes. It isn't a question of 'considering myself' Irish - I am Irish - I was born here. The question is whether people like de Valera, Connolly, Hugh Blackham etc from the past and people like Pat Doherty and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh from the present should e considered Irish.
 

hollandia

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Yes. It isn't a question of 'considering myself' Irish - I am Irish - I was born here. The question is whether people like de Valera, Connolly, Hugh Blackham etc from the past and people like Pat Doherty and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh from the present should e considered Irish.
To answer that particular question - yes. And that is the position of the irish government.

Irish Citizenship through birth, descent and by Naturalisation
 

Cruimh

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One Thing that is instructive - IrishCentral (Paddywhackery.com) which has a very racist outlook on Ireland and Irish Identity has a piece on Brendan Bracken.

The first sentence:

Brendan Bracken, Winston Churchill’s closest confidant in politics, was an immigrant to Britain who renounced his Catholic faith and tried to keep his Irish background a secret.
The abandonment of Catholicism is also mentioned in the Irish Times Article on which this is based - but not as prominently.

Of course they don't mention that, closer to home, Joe Kennedy tried to downplay the Kennedy clan's Irish roots - but abandoning their religion wasn't a part of that.
 

McSlaggart

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One Thing that is instructive - IrishCentral (Paddywhackery.com) which has a very racist outlook on Ireland and Irish Identity has a piece on Brendan Bracken.

The first sentence:



The abandonment of Catholicism is also mentioned in the Irish Times Article on which this is based - but not as prominently.

Of course they don't mention that, closer to home, Joe Kennedy tried to downplay the Kennedy clan's Irish roots - but abandoning their religion wasn't a part of that.
He must have forgot to change his surname.... something crazy, like, after a castle. Na no one would be that desperate.
 

Cruimh

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I'm proudly Irish. I just don't equate Irish with hating the British, being exclusive of Britishness, being exclusively Gaelic or Catholic or Nationalist. Irish is a lot wider than the Nat view of the Eire state and what it represents. It's on here all the time where people who criticise the GAA are "anti-Irish" or considered to hate things that are "Irish".

As the name Ireland and the Irish identity was seen as belonging to an alien and exclusive ideology / identity over many years since partition, but mainly since the troubles, many Unionists in this part of Ireland have rejected and/or denied an Irish identity.
It took a long time, and they don't often discuss it, but PSF via Jim Gibney did concede in 1997 that there is a British Dimension to Irishness. All Irishness, not just Unionist community.

Irish republicans, we have got to recognise the British in us and the unionists have got to recognise the Irishness in them and I think that that type of notion is quite revolutionary if you come at it from a straightforward republican point of view, but nonetheless I feel that the proximity of the two islands, the interplay at a human level, the shared history of the two islands-all of this mix indicates clearly that there is a Britishness to the Irish people, whether nationalists or unionists,
CAIN: Democratic Dialogue: With all due respect - pluralism and parity of esteem (Report No. 7)

Most of the time they play on confusion between British and English. When a Scot describes himself as British he isn't diminishing his Scottishness, or trying to piggyback onto Englishness. But God Forbid that our shinners and associated zealots should acknowledge the reality that we are all part of the one Archipelago.
 

purpledon

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Interesting Cruimh, it seems that Gaelic Nationalism hasn't been very helpful in making the PUL community associate themselves with Ireland. Would you consider yourself Irish?
The PUL community couldn't associate themselves with the majority Irish before partition, before Home Rule, before the Gaelic Revival. In fact, the PUL community never associated themselves with the majority Irish before, during and after the famine. The PUL community never, ever associated themselves with the majority Irish.

Before all of the above, the Protestants in Ireland could consider themselves Irish, but what did they consider the non-Protestant Irish to be?

That is the question Protestants cannot and could never answer, instead, like Cruimh refer to Dev and so on but that fails to answer what Protestants consider the Irish majority population to be in the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th and now the 21st century.

I await your answers.
 

Jack O Neill

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It took a long time, and they don't often discuss it, but PSF via Jim Gibney did concede in 1997 that there is a British Dimension to Irishness. All Irishness, not just Unionist community.



CAIN: Democratic Dialogue: With all due respect - pluralism and parity of esteem (Report No. 7)

Most of the time they play on confusion between British and English. When a Scot describes himself as British he isn't diminishing his Scottishness, or trying to piggyback onto Englishness. But God Forbid that our shinners and associated zealots should acknowledge the reality that we are all part of the one Archipelago.[/QUOTE


,Archipelago is a chain, cluster or collection of islands.

we are two separate islands , one was invaded and occupied by people from the other , unfortunately descendants of those invaders are still here , some of them have computers and have been trained how to use them
 

CastleRay

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Neither do most Irish people. You have a warped sense of what the rest of us believe.
I don't think I do have a warped of that at all.

The Eire state was founded on anti-Britishness sentiment and was never a good neighbour until recently to the UK, and it is that state which took on the name "Ireland" and handing out "Irish" citizenship. If unionists see the nationalist identity of Irish as one that is anti-British, then it is blinkered to consider that "warped".

Criticism of the GAA for example, where warranted, I have no problem with. Manufactured outrage, on the otherhand...
I agree with you on any manufactured outrage. However, you will have seen on here many times when criticism of the GAA has been regarded as anti-Irish.
 


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