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When did Eireann become Ireland?


redneck

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I am interested in an teanga Gaelige. The Irish language. I would like to find out at what period in time posters think English became the dominant language in Ireland. Personally I would go back to the 17th century and in particular the year 1690. To me the key time when English became the dominant language was after the Battle of the Boyne and Battle of Aughrim. The Protestant English speaking Ascendency became dominant after that. And have basically continued up to the present day. With the Roman Catholic middle class replacing the Protestant one in 1922. Other key dates would be 1801, the Act of Union which hastened the decline of an Gaeilge.
The good news for an Gaeilge is that soon there will be some kind of protection for it in the North- an Acht, and also the Gaeilscoileanna movement is booming in the South. Slán

 


redneck

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Before 1690, the main difference on this island was between Gaelic speakers and English speakers, after this it became between Catholics and Protestants.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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I am interested in an teanga Gaelige. The Irish language. I would like to find out at what period in time posters think English became the dominant language in Ireland. Personally I would go back to the 17th century and in particular the year 1690. To me the key time when English became the dominant language was after the Battle of the Boyne and Battle of Aughrim. The Protestant English speaking Ascendency became dominant after that. And have basically continued up to the present day. With the Roman Catholic middle class replacing the Protestant one in 1922. Other key dates would be 1801, the Act of Union which hastened the decline of an Gaeilge.
The good news for an Gaeilge is that soon there will be some kind of protection for it in the North- an Acht, and also the Gaeilscoileanna movement is booming in the South. Slán

I think the Nine Years War and the Flight of the Earls of 1607 were more significant dates for the Irish language than 1690. The earlier conflict established a centralised state and the island wide rule of English law with English as the language of government and law.

The Williamite War and the wars of the 1640s were of more significance for religious and political issues than cultural ones. I think the losing side in both cases included a large element of English speaking and culturally English or at least Old English within it.
 

wombat

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The introduction of the National school system followed by the famine were the main causes for the decline of Irish. English became necessary for economic survival.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Reminds me of an odd corner pointed out to me years back. Far as I am aware the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 is regarded by many as the point at which we became a fully legal declared Republic.

The thing is though that within the Act a Republic is never alleged or declared and the only thing I could see in the Act was an acknowledgement that 'Eire' should be translated as 'Republic of Ireland'.

I looked it up in O'Kelly's Constitutional Law and sure enough O'Kelly makes the point also that we seem to be missing a legally acknowledged declaration as a Republic.
 

mangaire2

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The introduction of the National school system followed by the famine were the main causes for the decline of Irish. English became necessary for economic survival.
the Act establishing the National School system was in 1831 I think, but it was several decades later before the Irish school network was established.
English had already replaced Irish over nearly all of Leinster & Ulster, Much of Munster & even Connaught, long before that..

the Famine did however disproportionally affect the Irish speakers along the western seaboard.
large numbers of Irish speakers died & more emigrated, & continued to emigrate for decades afterwards.
 

wombat

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the Act establishing the National School system was in 1831 I think, but it was several decades later before the Irish school network was established.
English had already replaced Irish over nearly all of Leinster & Ulster, Much of Munster & even Connaught, long before that..
It hadn't really, it was the language of commerce so a lot of people had some English. I was surprised to find that Irish was still spoken by old people in Kilkenny in early 20th century. The national school system and the prospect of going to America were huge incentives to learn English.
 

wombat

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Reminds me of an odd corner pointed out to me years back. Far as I am aware the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 is regarded by many as the point at which we became a fully legal declared Republic.

The thing is though that within the Act a Republic is never alleged or declared and the only thing I could see in the Act was an acknowledgement that 'Eire' should be translated as 'Republic of Ireland'.

I looked it up in O'Kelly's Constitutional Law and sure enough O'Kelly makes the point also that we seem to be missing a legally acknowledged declaration as a Republic.
There was a problem at some stage with an ambassador, I think it may have been the Canadian, who presented his credentials as ambassador to the Republic of Ireland and they were refused until they were changed to Ireland.
 

mangaire2

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It hadn't really, it was the language of commerce so a lot of people had some English. I was surprised to find that Irish was still spoken by old people in Kilkenny in early 20th century. The national school system and the prospect of going to America were huge incentives to learn English.
you say -
"The national school system and the prospect of going to America were huge incentives to learn English."
I agree,
but c. 80% of the population were monoglot English speakers, by the time that the National School system was established.

& yes there were small numbers of native Irish speakers in Kilkenny & in other counties such as Louth, Armagh, Tyrone …… "in early 20th century".
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
There was a problem at some stage with an ambassador, I think it may have been the Canadian, who presented his credentials as ambassador to the Republic of Ireland and they were refused until they were changed to Ireland.
Hadn't heard of that incident. If you go looking for the exact legal moment when the state became legally a Republic it is often quoted as 1948 but if there is such a declaration there I can't see it.
 

redneck

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Irish was in decline from the Statutes of Kilkenny. The English King ruled Ireland at that stage. Yes the flight of the Earls and battles of Kinsale did establish English rule in Ireland and in particular Ulster. But to me it was the Protestant ascendancy, the Penal laws and the success worldwide of the British empire that really caused it's decline. The success of England, the success of English speaking America and the Industrial revolution did not help an Gaeilge but helped English.
Ach is é mo thuairm go mbíonn an Gaeilge teanga beo anois. Tá súil agam go mbeidh "Acht na Gaeilge" ins an Tuaisceart deireadh an bliain seo. Agus ceapaim go bhfuil an Tg4 rúd an mhaith freisin.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Irish was in decline from the Statutes of Kilkenny. The English King ruled Ireland at that stage. Yes the flight of the Earls and battles of Kinsale did establish English rule in Ireland and in particular Ulster. But to me it was the Protestant ascendancy, the Penal laws and the success worldwide of the British empire that really caused it's decline. The success of England, the success of English speaking America and the Industrial revolution did not help an Gaeilge but helped English.
Ach is é mo thuairm go mbíonn an Gaeilge teanga beo anois. Tá súil agam go mbeidh "Acht na Gaeilge" ins an Tuaisceart deireadh an bliain seo. Agus ceapaim go bhfuil an Tg4 rúd an mhaith freisin.
The Statutes of Kilkenny were a generally ineffective attempt to stem the Gaelic resurgence. It did not mark the starting point of a decline in the Irish language. Anglo Norman Ireland had been in decline, geographically and culturally, since the mid 13th century and the Irish language revived from that time until well into the 16th century. on

From about 1250 onwards Ireland became a drain on the finances of the English crown and those rescources were prioritised elsewhere. The was a significant return flow of ‘english’ out of Ireland and those that remained became increasingly gaelicised. Even the great Anglo Norman lordships of the Fitzgeralds and Butlers saw a large element of hybridisation. Not Irish but neither English. Both cultures, law and languages were present in their territories and within their people from the lowest class to the very top.

I would say that it was the Tudor reconquest and then the later defeat of the Ulster Earls and the various plantations that saw the start of the decline of Irish.

Worlds Apart?
 
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