When Was The Theocratic State at its height and When Did It End?

General Urko

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Malcolm Redfellow

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What a load of BS. Dublin in the c18, 19 and early c20 was the most anglicised city in Ireland and the most sexually liberal.
I think that amounts to saying: Dublin was a garrison city, and had a seedy side to provide the needs of the rude and licentious soldiery.

On which matter, Joyceans can dine on Circe, Zoe Higgins, Bella Cohen and associated walk-on parts.
 

McTell

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I think that amounts to saying: Dublin was a garrison city, and had a seedy side to provide the needs of the rude and licentious soldiery.

On which matter, Joyceans can dine on Circe, Zoe Higgins, Bella Cohen and associated walk-on parts.

Malc, this went back centuries in dublin, a local speciality. Back to the viking founders trading slave girls. Then we culchies started colonising the place in the 1800s, and it all went underground.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris's_List_of_Covent_Garden_Ladies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Derrick
 

Lumpy Talbot

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True. Dublin was known as quite a licentious city for a long time. It was also infamous for the amount of duels there among Trinity students. It was quite a dangerous place to be set to learning the old 'hic, hac, hoc'.
 

Banban

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The catholic church is a multinational that had a far greater interest in using Ireland as an incubator for developing English-speaking priests and obedient believers to be sent into English-speaking countries across the world to build up their church there than it had in anything to do with Ireland itself or Irish culture.

The fact that this church was handed sole charge of saving a language in a situation where the language was corralled into schools and effectively isolated there from every other part of daily life is a piece of chicanery indulged in by those forces which insisted that the anglicisation of the country continued apace after 'independence'. These are the people who really rule Ireland and all the wafflers talking about 'mistakes' made about the language consistently over a full century are fools. And the political class talking heads, the TDs are and have been either fools or silent accomplices.
I am not sure about the Catholic Church being handed sole charge of saving the Irish language is correct but the rest of your statement is correct. The Catholic Church in Ireland did not care about the Irish language. It had Latin so it did not need another language. The governments after 1922 thought that all that was needed was to teach people Irish in school and then it would encourage many people to speak Irish every day as the main language. It would be like teaching everyone French and then expecting it to somehow become the main language of people being used in every facet of Irish life. This was a naive idea. In order to have achieved it there should have been an Official Languages Act stating how Irish was to be used in daily. It should have covered the civil and public services, education, business and retail, transport, the judiciary etc.

Besides the lack of legislation to introduce Irish back into daily life, there was no changing of the English language only mindset in the public service. People believe that the Irish state was set up in 1922. Legally an Irish state was set up but what really happened was that Irish ministers finally got to control the state that existed in Ireland. The official language of the state in Ireland was English. The Irish civil servants who worked the system worked in English and they were imbued with the English mindset that only the English language was important. They were not going to change. I already mentioned the attempt by Richard Mulcahy as Minister for Local Government to get public servants that worked in the Gaeltacht to learn Irish. They had three years to do so or else they would no longer be employed by the state. The civil servants and others kept lobbying the governments against it and the latter kept extending the deadline so that no one ever had to worry about not being able to speak Irish when they were dealing with Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht. The government quietly rescinded the legal instrument in the 1960s. NO civil servant ever lost their job for not being able to speak Irish. Meanwhile the Gaeltachtaí shrank and English became more powerful in those areas. Is it any wonder when Gaeltacht dwellers could not interact with the state in their vernacular and had to switch to English? Unfortunately the state was not going to face up to its civil servants and get them to change.
 
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Banban

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What a load of BS. Dublin in the c18, 19 and early c20 was the most anglicised city in Ireland and the most sexually liberal.

Peasants had harsher moral codes as they do in all countries.
I never mentioned anything about Baile Átha Cliath. I was speaking about most of the country. Up until the mid-19th century the western side of Ireland - from Derry to Waterford - was in rural areas mostly Irish-speaking. The bulk of the population of Ireland at that time was living in the country.
 

Banban

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Who gives a Phuck about the Irish language as most of the true Irish have emigrated and all that are left are charlatans, Confidence tricksters .

Trying to regurgitate that language is like trying to regurgitate a deceased cat
That is a very strange and sad attitude. Irish people are very fond of the Irish language, despite what some people claim. It makes Ireland distinct and gives it a lot of history. Without the Irish language, what would be the point of the Irish state? If there was nothing Irish about the Irish state, would there need to be one? The 26 county state is a continuation of the British state that existed in Ireland until 1922. We painted letter boxes green and put up the tricolour but not much of the state agencies that the British handed over in 1922 changed. We still use the English common law as the legal system, we still have English laws on the statute book (some dating back to before the English ever arrived in Ireland in 1169) and we have agencies and government structures that the English set up e.g. the Office of Public Works, the General-Register's Office, the local councils, the Ordnace Survey, the post office, etc. We have a very peculiar form of independence. We fought a war to kick out the English but then kept all their laws and systems in place.

Regarding your comment about regurgitating a dead cat, the same could be said about English poetry and literature. I spent years of secondary school learning crap such as Silas Marner, William Shakespeare's sonnets and plays and other stuff that I can't remember but not once in any job interview have I been asked to recite a Shakespeare sonnet or talk about the plot in one of his plays. It is fine for some but learning 500 year old English literature is a waste of time unless one loves it.
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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That is a very strange and sad attitude. Irish people are very fond of the Irish language, despite what some people claim [1]. It makes Ireland distinct and gives it a lot of history [2]. Without the Irish language, what would be the point of the Irish state? [3] If there was nothing Irish about the Irish state, would there need to be one? [4] The 26 county state is a continuation of the British state that existed in Ireland until 1922 [5]. We painted letter boxes green [6] and put up the tricolour but not much of the state agencies that the British handed over in 1922 changed [7]. We still use the English common law as the legal system [8], we still have English laws on the statute book (some dating back to before the English ever arrived in Ireland in 1169) and we have agencies and government structures that the English set up e.g. the Office of Public Works, the General-Register's Office, the local councils, the Ordnace Survey, the post office, etc. [9] We have a very peculiar form of independence. [10] We fought a war to kick out the English but then kept all their laws and systems in place [11].

Regarding your comment about regurgitating a dead cat, the same could be said about English poetry and literature. I spent years of secondary school learning crap such as Silas Marner, William Shakespeare's sonnets and plays and other stuff [12] that I can't remember but not once in any job interview have I been asked to recite a Shakespeare sonnet or talk about the plot in one of his plays. It is fine for some but learning 500 year old English literature is a waste of time unless one loves it. [5]
[1] The proof being: they use it so exclusively. (Ahem!)

[2] Is history, not written as gaelige, somehow therefore not history?

[3] Why, then, was the Declaration of Independence not exclusively as gaelige?

[4] Arguably one of the most asinine comments currently being perpetrated.

[5] Cheez!

[6] Which colour would you have preferred? Wherever one goes in the former imperial territories one may stumble upon the cast-iron of Falkirk. In the former mandate of Palestine, they didn't even change the colour:


[7] Now that is ignorance on stilts!

[8] Because it works, dammit! And when it doesn't we amend it.

[9] Again, if it works, why muck with it? If you seriously believe the county structures haven't changed, you are living in a fool's paradise.

[10] But a very effective one.

[11] The War of Independence was not about kick[ing] out the English. The departure of the British was already decided by 1912: the only question remaining was how that departure would be formulated (and then who would be top dog).

[12] Coat-trailing. Would you have preferred a syllabus based entirely upon Congreave, Goldsmith, Joyce, Kavanagh, O'Casey, Shaw, Sheridan, Synge, Wilde and Yeats? All of whom, by the way, featuring in the syllabuses of English schools. By the same token, I was taught the sine-rule, and how manually to extract a square-root: neither of which featured as a test in any job-interview. Perhaps, it's just that some folk are natural Philistines.
 
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Banban

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Dear Malcolm,

I was surprised and amused by your reaction to some of the things I wrote. Allow me to reply and elaborate.

1. Irish people being fond of the Irish language but not speaking it - there are many reasons why Irish people do not speak Irish as their main language including there being too much political and economic pressure not not to use English, the priority given to English in education, broadcasting, the civil service etc. Another aspect is that sometimes Irish speakers are not offered a choice to use Irish. I have often asked companies and banks that I am a customer of to provide products and services in Irish as I was ready to pay for them. Unfortunately for some reason these companies have a problem with the Irish language and won't provide products and services in Irish so therefore I am forced to use English.

2. History not being history if not in the Irish language - I am not sure what this is about but of course Ireland has a history that is not in the Irish language. What I am referring to is that the Irish language provides knowledge about the family names, place names, accents, Irish literature in English, the way people pronounce words (e.g. tree instead of three), syntax, grammar left over from Irish (e.g. she does be, you broke my windows on me etc.), phrases used in Hiberno-English that come from Irish (I nearly fell out of my standing laughing - ba bheag nár thit mé as mo sheasamh ag gáire - as I heard the mother of my ex-girlfriend in Tralee once say). The Irish language also makes its impact on history as being of only seventeen instances in human history where an original alphabet was created. Ogham was created for the Irish language. Most people just copied other people's alphabets or writing systems but ogham was created in Ireland.

Irish-speaking monks created spaces between words - perhaps the most important Irish invention ever. It is estimated that up until the 1600s, the largest collection of medical manuscripts in one single language was in the Irish language.

Andy Bielenberg states in his book "Irish Flour Milling - A History 600 - 2000" that such was the extent of milling in Ireland towards the end of the first millennium, the Irish language was the first language in Europe to have vernacular terms for milling. There is more that I could add but this is the type of history that I am referring to.

3. The Declaration of Independence was written as Gaeilge, in English and in French. Look at the Dáil debates from January 21st, 1919. They are all there. Here is the Irish version for you:
De bhrigh gur dual do mhuinntir na hÉireann bheith n-a saor náisiún.

Agus de bhrigh nár staon muintir na hÉireann riamh le seacht gcéad bliadhain ó dhiúltadh d'annsmacht Gall agus ó chur ina choinnibh go minic le neart airm.

Agus de bhrígh ná fuil de bhunadhas agus ná raibh riamh de bhunadhas le dlighe Shasana san tír seo acht foiréigean agus calaois, agus ná fuil de thaca leis ach sealbh lucht airm i n-aimhdheóin dearbhthola muinntire na hÉireann.

Agus de bhrigh go ndeárna Saor-Arm na hÉireann Saorstát Éireann d'fhorfhógairt i mBaile Átha Cliath Seachtmhain na Cásca 1916 ar son muinntire na hÉireann.

Agus de bhrigh go bhfuil muinntir na hÉireann lán-cheaphtha ar neamhspléadhchus iomlán do bhaint amach agus do chosaint dóibh fhéin d'fhonn leas an phobuil do chur chun cinn, an ceart d'athchur ar a bhonnaibh, an tsíothcháin i nÉirinn agus caradas le náisiúnaibh eile do chur i n-áirithe dhóibh féin agus féineachus náisiúnta do cheapadh go mbeidh toil na ndaoine mar bhunudhas leis agus cothrom cirt is caoitheamhlachta dá bhárr ag gach duine i nÉirinn.

Agus de bhrigh go ndeárna muinntir na hÉireann, agus sinn i mbéal ré nuadha de stair an domhain, feidhm a bhaint as an Olltoghadh, Mí na Nodlag, 1918, chun a dhearbhughadh de bhreis adhbhalmhóir gur toil leó bheith díleas do Shaorstát Éireann.

Ar an adhbhar son deinimídne .i. na teachtaí atá toghtha ag muinntir na hÉireann agus sinn i nDáil Chomhairle i dteannta a chéile, bunughadh Saorstáit d'áth-dheimhniughadh i n-ainm náisiún na hÉireann agus sinn féin do chur fá gheasaibh an deimhniughadh so do chur i bhfeidhm ar gach slighe ar ár gcumas.

Órduighmíd ná fuil de chomhacht ag éinne ach amháin ag na Teachtaíbh toghtha ag muinntir na hÉireann dlighthe dhéanamh gur dual do mhuinntir na hÉireann géilleadh dhóibh, agus ná fuil de pháirliment ann go mbeidh an náisiún umhal do ach amháin Dáil Éireann.

Dearbhuighmíd ná fuilingeóchaimíd go bráth an cumhangcas atá dá dhéanamh ag an annsmacht Ghallda ar ár gceart náisiúnta agus éilighmíd ar chamthaí na Sasanach imtheacht ar fad as ár dtír.

Ilighimíd ar gach saornáisiún ar domhan neamhspleádhchus na hÉireann d'admháil agus fógraimíd gurab éigean ár neamhspleádhchus chun síothcháin a chur i n-áirithe do'n domhan.

I n-ainm muinntire na hÉireann cuirimíd ár gcinneamhaint fé chomairce Dhia an Uile-Chomhacht do chuir misneach agus buan-tseasamhacht n-ár sinnsear chun leanamhaint leó go treun les na céadta bliadhain gcoinnibh tíoránachta gan truagh gan [15]taise: agus de bhrigh gur móide an neart an ceart a bheith againn san troid d'fhágadar mar oighreacht againn, aithchuingimiíd ar Dhia A bheannacht do bhronnadh orainn i gcóir an treasa deiridh den chomhrac go bfhuilmid fé gheasaibh leanmhaint do go dtí go mbainfeam amach an tsaoirse.

4. If there is nothing Irish about the Irish, should there be an Irish state? - this is a valid question. Why did Irish people feel the need to be independent from Britain for so long? Why weren't Irish people content with being ruled by England and later Britain? Surely if we did not consider the British as foreign, then why would Irish people want to be free from them? Why did Finland chose to declare independence just over 100 years ago? Surely if they did not feel Finnish and felt Russian they would have remained as part of the Russian Empire? The same can be said for many nations that struggled for their independence.

5. The 26 county state is a continuation of the British state that existed up to 1922 - I might have phrased this better to make it clearer but there was administrative continuity after the handover of power to the Provisional Government in 1922. It wasn't as if the new Irish ministers sacked all the public officials, wound up all the agencies that the British had established in Ireland, and abrogated all British laws in Ireland. There was continuity. The civil service such as the local authorities, the OPW, the GRO, the post office, the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction, the Ordnance Survey, the Royal Irish Academy, the revenue commissioners, the National Board of Education, the National University of Ireland and many more were all in existence before 1922 and the new Irish government kept them in place and attached new bodies such as the Civic Guard/An Garda Síochána, the army, the Department of Defence to the existing governance structures.

6. Green letterboxes - it is not the colour of the paint that I was really interested in (personally I would go for yellow) but the action that it was meant to symbolise. The Provisional Government put a veneer of Irishness (the colour green) on the structures that the British had established in Ireland in order to demonstrate to the Irish people that change had happened. The change was only on the surface as the same systems were kept in place. The mindset that the British had propagated in its Irish civil servants remained despite the change of government to Irish ministers. The mindset consisted of only using the English language and concentrating power in Dublin. The reason for this is that the British were reluctant to devolve many powers to the local authorities in Ireland as nationalists could have used them to undermine British rule. That is why Irish councils never got to have their own constabularies and control over education like the British county councils did.

7. Not much of the state agencies changed after 1922 - what I am referring to is the that administrative continuity after the handing over of power to Irish ministers in 1922. The OPW, the Commissioners for Irish Lights, the Department of Agriculture, the prison service etc. remained in existence. The Irish governments did not abolish them. I do not find that as ignorance on stilts as you suggest.

8. Common law - it might work but why didn't the new Irish governments make efforts to repeal English laws such as the Act of Union which was only fully repealed in the 1950s? It seems odd to make huge efforts to become independent and then continue using the former colonial power's laws and statutes. The Law Reform Act of 2007 has as its aim to repeal all laws before 1922.

9. Change of structures - I know well that the countries structures have changed so there is no need to talk of fool's paradise. What I am referring to was the administrative continuity after the change of power in 1922. The new Irish state kept most of what the British had set up.

10. Peculiar form of independence - but a very effective one. I take your point on this.

11. The War of Independence was not about kicking out the English - yes it was! If one reads the witness statements in the Bureau of Military History one can read many people's views about this. The reason for the civil war was because the republicans believed that the English were not being kicked out enough.

12. I too was taught stuff such as algebra, theorems etc. which thankfully I have never had to touch since. I do not mind what is on an English syllabus. It is an international language so I imagine a good syllabus should reflect that with literature from North America, Australia, New Zealand, Africa and closer to home from Britain and Ireland. Some people complain about the usefulness of Irish being taught. It can be argued that learning Shakespeare is equally a waste of time as it is not going to help anyone get a job unless they want to be an English teacher or drama teacher.

Phew! That was a lot of typing. Slán go fóill.
 

McTell

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I can't remember but not once in any job interview have I been asked to recite a Shakespeare sonnet or talk about the plot in one of his plays. It is fine for some but learning 500 year old English literature is a waste of time unless one loves it.

Brendan behan, irish scholar -


I absolutely must decline
To dance in the streets with Gertrude Stein
And as for Alice B Toklas
I'd rather shakespeare and a great big box of chocolades".
 
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raetsel

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Who gives a Phuck about the Irish language as most of the true Irish have emigrated and all that are left are charlatans, Confidence tricksters .

Trying to regurgitate that language is like trying to regurgitate a deceased cat
Was the cat alive when you ate it? :)
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Irish-speaking monks created spaces between words [1] - perhaps the most important Irish invention ever. It is estimated that up until the 1600s, the largest collection of medical manuscripts in one single language [2] was in the Irish language.
Brevity being the soul of wit (Cf: Hamlet, II.ii.90), I'll address just that, as an example of some egregious cultural appropriation.

[1] Paul Saenger addressed that one. Two essential points:
  • the end of scriptio continua (i.e. adding spaces between words) is contemporary with the evolution of Caroline minuscule hand. That originated in the celebrated scriptorium of Corbie Abbey, around AD780. The link to "Irish monks" is a trifle tendentious: Corbie was St Balthild of Ascania's Benedictine foundation of c.AD660, a daughter-house of Luxeuil (and — yes — Luxeuil was founded by St Columbanus). Doubtless Irish and (more likely, considering Corbie's location and founder) Anglo-Saxons were among the monks of Corbie.
  • Saenger propounds that scriptio continua came about with the evolution of silent reading. Think about it.
[2] Extremely unlikely. I'd be looking at any one of many Arab libraries, with Greek and Arabic manuscripts. For one example, the library of Timbuktu (better believe it!) housed three-quarters of a million texts (mostly in Arabic) from ancient to medieval times.
 

Cruimh

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Brevity being the soul of wit (Cf: Hamlet, II.ii.90), I'll address just that, as an example of some egregious cultural appropriation.

[1] Paul Saenger addressed that one. Two essential points:
  • the end of scriptio continua (i.e. adding spaces between words) is contemporary with the evolution of Caroline minuscule hand. That originated in the celebrated scriptorium of Corbie Abbey, around AD780. The link to "Irish monks" is a trifle tendentious: Corbie was St Balthild of Ascania's Benedictine foundation of c.AD660, a daughter-house of Luxeuil (and — yes — Luxeuil was founded by St Columbanus). Doubtless Irish and (more likely, considering Corbie's location and founder) Anglo-Saxons were among the monks of Corbie.
  • Saenger propounds that scriptio continua came about with the evolution of silent reading. Think about it.
[2] Extremely unlikely. I'd be looking at any one of many Arab libraries, with Greek and Arabic manuscripts. For one example, the library of Timbuktu (better believe it!) housed three-quarters of a million texts (mostly in Arabic) from ancient to medieval times.
Thread seems to have drifted away from the discussion of the supposedly Theocratic State. Probably just as well....
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Thread seems to have drifted away from the discussion of the supposedly Theocratic State. Probably just as well....
Well, it's the History forum. I'd happily debate the essential conflict:
Explicitly or implicitly, the activities of human beings in the centuries between c.1150 and c.1320 were moulded by two powerful forces: on the one hand, the pressures and the temptations of the material world, made all the more manifestly economic development, and on the other , the deeply held belief in the need to aspire towards a higher, spiritual life, itself displayed with increasing clarity by contemporary social changes.
If the thread was meant to show modern Ireland re-enacting that medieval dichotomy, nine centuries too late, I'd have very little interest — but at times contributors seemed to approach that nadir. Anyway, I'd severely question that modern Ireland (despite the insidious influence of some reactionary clerics) was ever able to divest itself of the capitalist world.

Meanwhile, it's so much more fun prícking the thought-bubbles of ultra-nationalists.
 

Degeneration X

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I was speaking the other day to a Loughrea Native approaching the 60 mark and he said by the 1960s it was well on the way! But I certainly recall it being well and truly alive in the West of Ireland as a teenager -

Women treated like shyte.
Children battered around classrooms.
Gay people having a frothing at the mouth hatred directed towards them.
Rednecks subjected people including children to criminal level psychosexual abuse in confession boxes!
Those insane referendums.
Contraception only fully legalised in 1985 in reality.
The women having the Magdellan Concentration camps at the backs of their genetic memories, even if it was not a practical reality - in fairness a Jewish Person living in Israel would have had more of a right to use the shoah as an excuse to control their lives than them!

I think oddly enough, The 8th amendment was the start of the end of it, because it forced a positive change in attitudes towards single women who had children in general!
Also I have only ever heard 2 people use the term 'illegitimate child', both sociopaths, one who is laughably at the level where he is an extreme fúcktard who thinks. he's an alpha male!

Mind you, the recent insane clause 4 of Fitzie's Sexual Offences Bill might indicate that they haven't gone away, you know!:mad:

Another superb thread closely related to this -

http://www.politics.ie/forum/cultur...ed-our-more-relaxed-attitude-towards-sex.html

I would say it was at its height at the foundation of The Taig Republic, with The Blueshirts getting Church support during the civil war, then 1932 and then Dev's Handiwork in the constitution!
It was certainly still strong with Jockey Boys, Casey and Cleary welcoming Pope JP2 and Marchinkus over in 1979!

So when was it at its zenith and when did it fall?
Ireland hasn't had a State Church since the 1860s - so I would say around then.
 

General Urko

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KEYHOLE KATE

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Close dancing and doing The Twist were really signs of the imminent Decline of the Roman Empire. The bishops tried to frighten people off with terrifying tales of the "Devil at Dances" but that made him/her even more attractive.
 

Degeneration X

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The Church of Ireland was established as the state church in 1536 by his knibs and disestablished as such in 1871 by her knibs -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Ireland

Interestingly, this article also points to their commitment to The Irish Language also!
Interestingly Gladstone thought disestablishment would be a tougher sell than Land Reform or Home Rule. Didn't turn out that way.

Antidisestablishmentarianism may be one of the longest words in the English language but it had a very short run in Ireland.
 


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