Where are the Governments 135,000 new jobs?

robut

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FactCheck: Were 135,000 new jobs really gained under Fine Gael?

Claim: 300,000 jobs were lost under Fianna Fáil, 135,000 were gained under Fine Gael – Fine Gael

Verdict: Can’t be verified, and relies on data that shouldn’t be used to measure job gains.
I cannot find any information at the CSO or anywhere to answer the following Qs:

1. Are these 135,000 jobs ALL taken by people who were previously on the Dole?

2. What is the quality of these Jobs?

3. What is the wage breakdown for these jobs?

4. How many of these jobs are low pay? As Bobby Phelan in the comments from Journal article above says:

"The problem is that the majority of the jobs are cheap labour.before the crash my take home was 860 but now only 470 so as you can c I am a long ways from recovery.as I have said before you cant build an economy on cheap labour."
5. How many of these 135,000 are actually new self employed people?

6. How many of these jobs are suplimented by payments from the state via welfare, Medical Cards & other allowances?

7. Do these 135,000 jobs include jobs filled from abroad due to lack of indiginous skills? OR are these 135,000 jobs all filled by people from the live register?

8. Have we now got a low pay economy? If so the consequences going forward?

9. All these job announcements in JOBS JOBS JOBS thread are predominantly Dublin based and in tech? They are also future aspirations, not actual immediate jobs? How many of these are taken by people off the live register? Are they in the main being filled from abroad due to lack of skills amongst indiginous workforce?

55% of Irish ICT jobs are filled by talent from abroad | @IrishRecruiter

10. Google Dublin - I read somewhere that 70% of the jobs there are filled from abroad?

11. If these 135,000 people ARE coming off the live register into 135,000 jobs, yet all these tech jobs are being filled from abroad ALSO. Where are these 135,000 people working?

12. A stat just out:

VAT receipts help boost revenue, but income tax below target - Independent.ie

Income tax is 6pc below the target for February, which runs counter to data showing a steady fall in unemployment.
So far this year, income tax is 3.8pc below target, corporation tax is 4.7pc lower, excise is 7.3pc below, and stamp duty is 12.9pc under. VAT is 8.1pc above target.
The only conclusion I can reach here is quiet alot of people in these new 135,000 jobs come in under the income tax threshold so are not paying any income tax due to LOW PAY? AND could also be in receipt of suppliments from the state. Personally if the latter, I dont call that a Job ( Self sustaining ).

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/rising-tax-revenue-leads-to-call-for-rise-in-spending-444266.html

“With employment figures showing strong growth, it is surprising we are not seeing a resultant increase in income tax receipts, notwithstanding the lower income taxes that kicked in at the start of the year,” said Peter Vale, tax partner at Grant Thornton.
MMMMM ... Isnt that INDEED a surprise????

I am sure I will have more questions, maybe others will too. The CSO isnt much good where quality of job and pay is concerned. If indeed many of these 135,000 are on low pay it has serious consequences going forward surely? Not being able to afford a mortgage, no extra income to spend in the local economy and so on.

If we have to keep filling the higher paid jobs from abroad due to lack of skills locally .. that also isnt good surely?

So over to you guys .. real answers please if possible, not party lines or green jersey cr*p ..

I am genuinely interested in answers to my Qs. Whichever way the answers work out. I am not DOWN on the government .. Im just asking the Qs out of interest and looking for PIE'ers wisdom on this is all.

Also I really fear .. that with all the best will in the world in the race to create JOBS regardless, that we are moving fast toward a low pay economy. I dont think that would be good. Maybe I am wrong, if so I will be happy.

If you are a party person then provide proper stats & links to backup your claims, saying so is not enough.
 
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Burnout

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I have a life.
The green jerseys are made in China for one....the low paid 'jobs' did'nt even make the income tax returns as most are on Family support. What kind of a job is that. Remember the old joke - My take home pay can't even take me home'.
 

SamsonS

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FactCheck: Were 135,000 new jobs really gained under Fine Gael?



I cannot find any information at the CSO or anywhere to answer the following Qs:

1. Are these 135,000 jobs ALL taken by people who were previously on the Dole?

2. What is the quality of these Jobs?

3. What is the wage breakdown for these jobs?

4. How many of these jobs are low pay?

5. How many of these jobs are suplimented by payments from the state via welfare, Medical Cards & other allowances?

6. Do these 135,000 jobs include jobs filled from abroad due to lack of indiginous skills? OR are these 135,000 jobs all filled by people from the live register?

7. Have we now got a low pay economy? If so the consequences going forward?

8. All these job announcements in JOBS JOBS JOBS thread are predominantly Dublin based and in tech? They are also future aspirations, not actual immediate jobs? How many of these are taken by people off the live register? Are they in the main being filled from abroad due to lack of skills amongst indiginous workforce?

55% of Irish ICT jobs are filled by talent from abroad | @IrishRecruiter

9. Google Dublin - I read somewhere that 70% of the jobs there are filled from abroad?

10. If these 135,000 people ARE coming off the live register into 135,000 jobs, yet all these tech jobs are being filled from abroad ALSO. Where are these 135,000 people working?

11. A stat just out:

VAT receipts help boost revenue, but income tax below target - Independent.ie





The only conclusion I can reach here is quiet alot of people in these new 135,000 jobs come in under the income tax threshold so are not paying any income tax due to LOW PAY? AND could also be in receipt of suppliments from the state. Personally if the latter, I dont call that a Job ( Self sustaining ).

I am sure I will have more questions, maybe others will too. The CSO isnt much good where quality of job and pay is concerned. If indeed many of these 135,000 are on low pay it has serious consequences going forward surely? Not being able to afford a mortgage, no extra income to spend in the local economy and so on.

If we have to keep filling the higher paid jobs from abroad due to lack of skills locally .. that also isnt good surely?

So over to you guys .. I need some answers, not party lines or green jersey cr*p ..

If you are a party person then provide proper stats & links to backup your claims, saying so is not enough.
Robut, good bit in that. Link below is to the dtatbases going back to 1998.

Statbank Database - Quarterly National Household Survey Main Results Listing Generated at 11:07 on 21FEB17

Your first q, did 135k of jobs all go to people on live register, then definitely not! Not sure what period you referring to, but low point in employment was around 1.82m in 2012, that is around 2.04m now.

Just on your point re income tax, its actually very slightly down year on year, what its down on is profile, ie, what they thought they would bring in by the end of Feb. That has to be considered in light of changes in the budget, but obviously a worry.
 

Erudite Caveman

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So over to you guys .. I need some answers, not party lines or green jersey cr*p ..
Why do you need answers?

Ultimately it just boils down to the question whether the FG government or governments in the past 6 years have been conducive to job growth. I don't think anyone can dispute that they have when unemployment has fallen from 15% to 6.6% and is projected to fall further, and employment has grown to it's highest level since 2009 and is back again over 2m. They've done a good job. Someone else might have done an even better job, but they didn't.

The rest, twaddling on about jobsbridge, emigration, zero-hours contracts and all other attempts to disqualify these simple overpowering stats is just **** pulling.
 

robut

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Robut, good bit in that. Link below is to the dtatbases going back to 1998.

Statbank Database - Quarterly National Household Survey Main Results Listing Generated at 11:07 on 21FEB17

Your first q, did 135k of jobs all go to people on live register, then definitely not! Not sure what period you referring to, but low point in employment was around 1.82m in 2012, that is around 2.04m now.

Just on your point re income tax, its actually very slightly down year on year, what its down on is profile, ie, what they thought they would bring in by the end of Feb. That has to be considered in light of changes in the budget, but obviously a worry.
Thanks SamsonS ..

The bit I am really interested in is a breakdown if possible of PAY for these 135,000 new jobs. Are we a lowpay economy? All i hear from gov is 135,000 new jobs, no mention ever of pay and quality. And no mention of how many are supplimented / topped up by the taxpayer?

I cannot find anything about that in the CSO site or the link you provided ( albeit I only had a look at the subject / title of each table ..
 

wombat

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CSO figures are presented as raw data so they can be compared from year to year. Politicians may interpret them as they please but arithmetic doesn't change so comparing one year to another gives an accurate picture of whatever's being compared.
 

robut

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From Jan 2016:

One Job | Broadsheet.ie

Now, consult CSO QNHS database – the source of official counts for numbers in employment.

Between the end of 1Q 2012 and 3Q 2015 (the latest for which we have data), total employment rose 158,000. But wait, these are not all jobs. 4,500 of that increase is in the category of Assisting Relative. And 121,200 of these additions are employees, including schemes. Beyond this, the above increase also includes 30,100 new (added) self-employed with no employees.

It is hard to assume that the Government can claim it ‘created’ self-employment jobs where there is not enough activity to hire staff, or that it increased the need to help relatives.
 

wombat

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It should be possible to measure employment by comparing prsi receipts and dole payments. It may be possible to prove to someone's satisfaction that there is no increase in employment levels but it may also be possible to prove to some peoples satisfaction that the moon landing was fake and Elvis lives in Glenamaddy
 

SamsonS

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Thanks SamsonS ..

The bit I am really interested in is a breakdown if possible of PAY for these 135,000 new jobs. Are we a lowpay economy? All i hear from gov is 135,000 new jobs, no mention ever of pay and quality. And no mention of how many are supplimented / topped up by the taxpayer?

I cannot find anything about that in the CSO site or the link you provided ( albeit I only had a look at the subject / title of each table ..
Annual SWS Statistical Information Report 2015 (2016 wont come out til June or so)

That will give you all the DSP stats back to 2006, numbers on each payment and what it costs. In relation to low pay, what you will see from that is the increases in people getting Family Income Supplement, which went from 65k in 2006 to 178k or so in 2015, FIS is the supplement payment paid to people with dependent children.

On the low pay/quality , firstly is about full time jobs, and in 2016 all the growth was in full time, so that's normally considered a good thing, as the numbers of underemployed goes down.

Wages/hours , CSO series on that, came out last week. Is in that same link.
 

runwiththewind

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Why do you need answers?

Ultimately it just boils down to the question whether the FG government or governments in the past 6 years have been conducive to job growth. I don't think anyone can dispute that they have when unemployment has fallen from 15% to 6.6% and is projected to fall further, and employment has grown to it's highest level since 2009 and is back again over 2m. They've done a good job. Someone else might have done an even better job, but they didn't.

The rest, twaddling on about jobsbridge, emigration, zero-hours contracts and all other attempts to disqualify these simple overpowering stats is just **** pulling.
Except the tax receipts don't reflect the 2 million employed.
 

SamsonS

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I suppose first thing is other than public servants and creating activation places, Gov does not create jobs, just conditions for the private sector to create jobs, but just as we blame gov when jobs get lost, then equally they claim credit for job creation.
That broadsheet piece is very lazy.
 

robut

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Annual SWS Statistical Information Report 2015 (2016 wont come out til June or so)

That will give you all the DSP stats back to 2006, numbers on each payment and what it costs. In relation to low pay, what you will see from that is the increases in people getting Family Income Supplement, which went from 65k in 2006 to 178k or so in 2015, FIS is the supplement payment paid to people with dependent children.

On the low pay/quality , firstly is about full time jobs, and in 2016 all the growth was in full time, so that's normally considered a good thing, as the numbers of underemployed goes down.

Wages/hours , CSO series on that, came out last week. Is in that same link.
Thanks again.

The bold part you wrote tells alot??

Can we assume if you are in receipt of FIS then you are on low pay?

If so, then since 2006 their has been a 113,000 more people on low pay? Thats 113,000 families depending on low pay?

Thats significant right there? Or am i reading too much into this ??
 

SamsonS

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Thanks again.

The bold part you wrote tells alot??

Can we assume if you are in receipt of FIS then you are on low pay?

If so, then since 2006 their has been a 113,000 more people on low pay? Thats 113,000 families depending on low pay?

Thats significant right there? Or am i reading too much into this ??
Afraid not!
The way to look at FIS is a payment to a person with children. A second issue to see why it would be considered a good scheme - say employer has a job 20k pa. A single person on the dole would see a decent increase in weekly income if they took job. A person with 1 child would see less of an increase, while someone with 2/3 etc would be worse off. FIS helps to bridge that gap, meaning that taking the 20k pa job can be viable for the person with a family.

During the recession we lost lots of jobs, but also had lots of people having reduced hours or reduced pay. fIS is vital for part time workers and people trying to get back into work.
 

Schuhart

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Can we assume if you are in receipt of FIS then you are on low pay?
It depends on what you mean by low pay. FIS relates to how many children you have.

If you have four children, you could have an income of EUR 40,000 pa and still qualify for FIS. And your children's allowance would not be counted as income.

If you regard that as low income, then FIS means low income.
 

robut

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Afraid not!
The way to look at FIS is a payment to a person with children. A second issue to see why it would be considered a good scheme - say employer has a job 20k pa. A single person on the dole would see a decent increase in weekly income if they took job. A person with 1 child would see less of an increase, while someone with 2/3 etc would be worse off. FIS helps to bridge that gap, meaning that taking the 20k pa job can be viable for the person with a family.

During the recession we lost lots of jobs, but also had lots of people having reduced hours or reduced pay. fIS is vital for part time workers and people trying to get back into work.
OK .. thresholds here for FIS .. Family Income Supplement (FIS) - SW 22


You may qualify if you:

- have an average weekly family income below the amounts outlined in the table below for your family size,

Size of family Weekly Income limit Annual Income limit (52 weeks)
1 child €511 €26,572
2 children €612 €31,824
3 children €713 €37,076
4 children €834 €43,368
5 children €960 €49,920
6 children €1076 €55,952
7 children €1212 €63,024
8 children or more €1308 €68,016

I must admit the annual wage thresholds for FIS are higher than I thought, way higher ..
 

SamsonS

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OK .. thresholds here for FIS .. Family Income Supplement (FIS) - SW 22


You may qualify if you:

- have an average weekly family income below the amounts outlined in the table below for your family size,

Size of family Weekly Income limit Annual Income limit (52 weeks)
1 child €511 €26,572
2 children €612 €31,824
3 children €713 €37,076
4 children €834 €43,368
5 children €960 €49,920
6 children €1076 €55,952
7 children €1212 €63,024
8 children or more €1308 €68,016

I must admit the annual wage thresholds for FIS are higher than I thought, way higher ..
And that is net, so you can see why so many might be on it, even if the amount they get is small. I am actually surprised we don't have more on it.
 

robut

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And that is net, so you can see why so many might be on it, even if the amount they get is small. I am actually surprised we don't have more on it.
Where does it say NET??

If so someone on €43k NET ( 4 kids as per table above ) would be earning what gross? Near €80k ( higher tax rate, usc etc )??

And that person would be on FIS??

Shur then FIS is another Childrens allowance??
 

SamsonS

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Where does it say NET??

If so someone on €43k NET ( 4 kids as per table above ) would be earning what gross? Near €80k ( higher tax rate, usc etc )??

And that person would be on FIS??

Shur then FIS is another Childrens allowance??
Well the money they get is 60% of the difference between their net pay and the income limit, so in your example, a person on 80k could be getting 10 a week on FIS, the person on 20k pa,might get 300 a week on FIS.
 

robut

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Well the money they get is 60% of the difference between their net pay and the income limit, so in your example, a person on 80k could be getting 10 a week on FIS, the person on 20k pa,might get 300 a week on FIS.
Yip .. its late, my mind is not working the best for stats and numbers :D Thanks again ..
 

Man or Mouse

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Except the tax receipts don't reflect the 2 million employed.
In what way? Figures I have seen suggest that the income tax take the last time we had this many employed was something like €27bn, whereas now it is something like €40bn, similar number employed. No wonder people are píssed off.
 


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