Where is the liberal pro-life perspective?

nationalsday

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A person cannot be a liberal and still think the law should restrict a woman's control of her own body. The Catholic marchers on the other hand are at least being consistent in holding that belief.

They hold it right alongside the belief that 'contraception is intrinsically evil'. And we wont even get into the Catholic churches track record on caring for all the unwanted children those two beliefs create.
I normally find that you are a sleveen "up your own arse" little rat and an utter bum, but I have to agree with you on this.

It amounts to the disgusting hypocrisy which has prevailed in this rotten catholic country for fifty years. When other women enjoyed the right to have an abortion in almost every single country in the world, we still Taliban-style insist that women who have unwanted pregnancies are obliged to go in hidden disgrace to England. And bottom line, its intrinsically all about catholic religious doctrine. In my lifetime (and not thirty years ago) if a woman wanted the contraceptive pill she had to slink, cap in hand, with a prescription into a chemist who enjoyed a judging attitude and the "right" to question her about her personal life by the chemist who was normally a regular mass-goer
 
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D

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A person cannot be a liberal and still think the law should restrict a woman's control of her own body. The Catholic marchers on the other hand are at least being consistent in holding that belief.
What's the 'liberal" position on free speech?

They hold it right alongside the belief that 'contraception is intrinsically evil'. And we wont even get into the Catholic churches track record on caring for all the unwanted children those two beliefs create.
At least they made it out of the womb.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high
 

gerhard dengler

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In my part of the world, I don't live in Ireland, there seems to be an very simplistic (perhaps intentionally convenient) way of viewing the abortion debate in Ireland.

I think that some assume, that being an atheist in Ireland means you must be against abortion, as though the only arguments against abortion in Ireland are on religious grounds.

It goes something along the lines of Anti-Abotion/Pro-Life= devout Catholic or Paisleyite Protestant when in actual fact it is a bit more complicated than that.
That's why I asked the OP to define what is a social liberal?
His/her reply immediately linked opposing abortion to "ultra-montane religious belief"

You're spot on, opposing abortion is not the sole preserve of "ultra-montane religious belief."

I've asked the OP again what is a social liberal? I'm interested in the OP's view as to what he/she considers a social liberal to be.
 

RodShaft

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A person cannot be a liberal and still think the law should restrict a woman's control of her own body. The Catholic marchers on the other hand are at least being consistent in holding that belief.

They hold it right alongside the belief that 'contraception is intrinsically evil'. And we wont even get into the Catholic churches track record on caring for all the unwanted children those two beliefs create.
So. Assisted suicide for anyone who wants it as a matter of choice?

Anything less is telling someone what to do with their body.
 

slysnara

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The more references to the Taliban the better.

It's that sort of over the top nonsense which will alienate the middle of the road voter.
 

rainmaker

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Of course they can
A woman can do what she likes with her own body, but should not be entitled to destroy another persons body - even if that body is temporarily physically dependent on her.
You're post is ridiculously contradictory.
 
D

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That's why I asked the OP to define what is a social liberal?
His/her reply immediately linked opposing abortion to "ultra-montane religious belief"

You're spot on, opposing abortion is not the sole preserve of "ultra-montane religious belief."

I've asked the OP again what is a social liberal? I'm interested in the OP's view as to what he/she considers a social liberal to be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
 

Mercurial

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By and large, I tend to have a liberal political perspective, voting for various centre-left parties and the same-sex marriage referendum. Yet I also have reservations on the proposed Repeal of the Eighth Amendment, on the grounds that it would seem impossible to frame a piece of legislation on the topic that couldn't be interpreted more broadly. Those currently leading the pro-life campaign, such as Cora Sherlock and Ronan Mullen repel through their conservative ideologies, so surely more centrist campaigners have to emerge on the No side?
What does a centrist view look like in this context? Presumably you either want a repeal or you don't.
 

petaljam

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Of course they can
A woman can do what she likes with her own body, but should not be entitled to destroy another persons body - even if that body is temporarily physically dependent on her.
She doesn't need to "destroy its body", she has the right to detach herself from a body that is dependent on her if she doesn't consent to continuing. If that leads to its death, then that's sad but it's just as sad when people die every day for lack of organ donations, and still we don't legally force others to donate theirs. Not even after their death when they no longer need them.

On Judith Jarvis Thomson's 'A Defence of Abortion'
 

automaticforthepeople

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By and large, I tend to have a liberal political perspective, voting for various centre-left parties and the same-sex marriage referendum. Yet I also have reservations on the proposed Repeal of the Eighth Amendment, on the grounds that it would seem impossible to frame a piece of legislation on the topic that couldn't be interpreted more broadly. Those currently leading the pro-life campaign, such as Cora Sherlock and Ronan Mullen repel through their conservative ideologies, so surely more centrist campaigners have to emerge on the No side?
You've either had too much to drink tonight or perhaps you're not old enough to remember 1983. Name one person in 1983 who was a liberal and who supported the 8th amendment at that referendum.
 

rainmaker

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So. Assisted suicide for anyone who wants it as a matter of choice?

Anything less is telling someone what to do with their body.
That is a very silly comparison. Just because a person is pro choice does not mean they have to assist in terminations.

I will also remind you that there is no law that says a person must prevent a suicide.
 

darkhorse

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She doesn't need to "destroy its body", she has the right to detach herself from a body that is dependent on her if she doesn't consent to continuing. If that leads to its death, then that's sad but it's just as sad when people die every day for lack of organ donations, and still we don't legally force others to donate theirs. Not even after their death when they no longer need them.

On Judith Jarvis Thomson's 'A Defence of Abortion'
But that's not how an abortion is carried out
The baby's body is actually destroyed
And not just 'detached from her body' as you claim
 

GDPR

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She doesn't need to "destroy its body", she has the right to detach herself from a body that is dependent on her if she doesn't consent to continuing. If that leads to its death, then that's sad but it's just as sad when people die every day for lack of organ donations, and still we don't legally force others to donate theirs. Not even after their death when they no longer need them.

On Judith Jarvis Thomson's 'A Defence of Abortion'
Oh not this old chestnut again! You couldnt force a grown man, woman or child by law to provide bone marrow or blood to another person, or allow any of their organs to be used to support the vital functions of that other person.

And we are not even talking about a person - in the case of an embryo.
 

petaljam

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Attempting to sedate and forcibly hydrate a barely 18 year old, actually committing a minor to a mental health unit against her and her family's wishes - there's literally nothing liberal in Ireland's abortion law, and some of those on here claiming to be liberals have supported those actions.

So it's hard to see what a liberal pro life approach could be. Would anyone like to describe it? Because if it even potentially entails the sorts of acts I mentioned above, I think we can dismiss any claim of liberalism.
 

nationalsday

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There is still the old "stone the sinned woman who has killed her child" vibe permeating in Ireland, year 2017, a la Raqqua-style (although they actually allow abortion on demand for women - ISIS are at least that liberal)

Fair play to all of the Irish feminists for putting up such a massively spirited defence regarding the right to do what they want in their personal lives, though, for the past half century - they are really great..

Its actually laughable when you see all of these Irish Times articles written by female journalists banging on about equal pay, Irish men are such sh#ts etc.., when they all in fact might have to put on the scarf in disgrace and head down to the boat and keep quiet about it afterwards, lest their windows get put in..
 

RodShaft

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That is a very silly comparison. Just because a person is pro choice does not mean they have to assist in terminations.

I will also remind you that there is no law that says a person must prevent a suicide.
You are not just arguing for a choice to abort though.

You are arguing for medical assistance in doing so.

Just as a person serking assisted suicide is seeking medical assistance.
 

rainmaker

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Funny but that's exactly what I thought about yours
And that is a very stupid reply.

Your position can be summarized as 'of course no one can tell a woman to do with her body - except when she is going to something with it that goes against my personal beliefs'.
 

darkhorse

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And that is a very stupid reply.

Your position can be summarized as 'of course no one can tell a woman to do with her body - except when she is going to something with it that goes against my personal beliefs'.
No I said a woman can do exactly what she wants to her own body
 

petaljam

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But that's not how an abortion is carried out
The baby's body is actually destroyed
And not just 'detached from her body' as you claim
That's exactly how a medical abortion works. It detaches the embryo from the womb.
Early surgical abortions are the same, except that during the process of removing the foetus and placenta etc, the body may be damaged, Exactly the same thing happens in miscarriages of the same gestation which need to be surgically removed.
 


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