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Where is the line drawn between a Minister's opinions and collective cabinet responsibility?


Disillusioned democrat

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Where is the line drawn between a Minister's policies and collective cabinet responsibility?

Charlie Flanagan - a more useless politician you'd struggle to find IMHO, other that Michael Ring I suppose - announces on the national airwaves he's in favour of making videoing AGS illegal but 24 hours later An Taoisheach says that's anti-democratic.

In effect Varadkar just called out Flanagan for promoting anti-democratic policies....in the Dail, in front of the media, like.

Most bizarre.
 


Sync

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You're misunderstanding what collective responsibility is. Cabinet collective responsibility, also known as collective ministerial responsibility, is a constitutional convention in Parliamentary systems that members of the cabinet must publicly support all governmental decisions made in Cabinet, even if they do not privately agree with them.

No decisions have been made. A report's been written (By most accounts it's an excellent report), you'd expect FF/FG to discuss with each other what to implement and how best to implement it. If they didn't do that with some public statements you'd be starting a poorly structured linkless OP on how they're all sheep who just parrot one line and never talk about things prior to decisions.


Even by your low standards, that's a lousy OP.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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You're misunderstanding what collective responsibility is. Cabinet collective responsibility, also known as collective ministerial responsibility, is a constitutional convention in Parliamentary systems that members of the cabinet must publicly support all governmental decisions made in Cabinet, even if they do not privately agree with them.

No decisions have been made. A report's been written (By most accounts it's an excellent report), you'd expect FF/FG to discuss with each other what to implement and how best to implement it. If they didn't do that with some public statements you'd be starting a poorly structured linkless OP on how they're all sheep who just parrot one line and never talk about things prior to decisions.


Even by your low standards, that's a lousy OP.
I think you're talking about the wrong topic, TBH.

Taoiseach slaps down proposal to ban people taking photos of gardaí on duty

It's nothing to do with the policing report - it was Flanagan's "shoot from the hip" announcement on SOR that he was in favour of making photographing AGS illegal only to be put back in his box by Varadkar in the Dail yesterday.

It's not a "private" opinion when you hit the national airwaves, it must be the responsibility of all Ministers to put forward "policy", so it's fair to assume that if the MoJ is on the public service broadcaster discussing policy changes that it's not his "personal" or "private" opinion.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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You're misunderstanding what collective responsibility is. Cabinet collective responsibility, also known as collective ministerial responsibility, is a constitutional convention in Parliamentary systems that members of the cabinet must publicly support all governmental decisions made in Cabinet, even if they do not privately agree with them.

No decisions have been made. A report's been written (By most accounts it's an excellent report), you'd expect FF/FG to discuss with each other what to implement and how best to implement it. If they didn't do that with some public statements you'd be starting a poorly structured linkless OP on how they're all sheep who just parrot one line and never talk about things prior to decisions.


Even by your low standards, that's a lousy OP.
I think you're talking about the wrong topic, TBH.

Taoiseach slaps down proposal to ban people taking photos of gardaí on duty

It's nothing to do with the policing report - it was Flanagan's "shoot from the hip" announcement on SOR that he was in favour of making photographing AGS illegal only to be put back in his box by Varadkar in the Dail yesterday.

It's not a "private" opinion when you hit the national airwaves, it must be the responsibility of all Ministers to put forward "policy", so it's fair to assume that if the MoJ is on the public service broadcaster discussing policy changes that it's not his "personal" or "private" opinion.
 

Sync

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You redefining what collective responsibility is doesn't make it so for anyone except you.

A good example of collective responsibility in action is the Chequers deal or when Robin Cook quit over Iraq. Everyone has to back the govt's policy or leave. So people left the cabinet.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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You redefining what collective responsibility is doesn't make it so for anyone except you.

A good example of collective responsibility in action is the Chequers deal or when Robin Cook quit over Iraq. Everyone has to back the govt's policy or leave. So people left the cabinet.
You're MAKING my point for me....Charlie Flanagan goes on the national airwaves wholly endorsing a new policy whereby his AGS would be even further removed from any accountability (this after overseeing the farce of AGS saying they didn't believe it made sense to look for any accountability for the 2m fake breath tests) by making it illegal to photograph them.

Now a minister on the public service broadcaster should be making the governments position clear, not stating his "private" opinions - do you agree?

Once this gets some well deserved ridicule on SM Varadkar shoots it down - stating government policy - it's different to Flanagan's stated preferred policy, who as MoJ should be implementing the government's "justice" policies - hence I believe Flanagan SHOULD leave the cabinet.
 

Sync

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He's advocating an idea. He's not saying he's not going to follow the current procedure. He's not saying he has no confidence in the current process. You're a weird person. You'll start terrible OPs over pretty much anything.

If they'd both said they agreed with the status quo you'd have started a bad OP on how the govt just wants to maintain the status quo.

If they'd both said they agreed with the change you'd have started a bad OP on how they want change for the sake of change.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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He's advocating an idea. He's not saying he's not going to follow the current procedure. He's not saying he has no confidence in the current process. You're a weird person. You'll start terrible OPs over pretty much anything.

If they'd both said they agreed with the status quo you'd have started a bad OP on how the govt just wants to maintain the status quo.

If they'd both said they agreed with the change you'd have started a bad OP on how they want change for the sake of change.
So you see NO problem with the MoJ basically going on the nation's public service broadcaster telling the nation he wants to implement draconian laws to further dilute our democracy in contrast to the governments actual policy?

Nor any problem with the Taoiseach letting him remain as MoJ when he's clearly not that fussed about actual justice or democracy?
 

Sync

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When asked whether this proposal about a ban on photographing gardaí was something he was prepared to bring to government, he replied: “Yes, I think it’s something that can be favourably looked at.”

In subsequent tweets, however, Minister Flanagan attempted to clarify his remarks. He said that he believed “transparency is vitally important” and that he supported the use of body cameras for gardaí.

He did add, however, that the “uploading of images of Gardaí undertaking their duties on social media and consequent threats and intimidation is totally unacceptable”, and that’s why he’s concerned.
Clearly a constitutional crisis. Ministers having an opinion? And willing to take that opinion to cabinet? This must not stand. Or something.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Clearly a constitutional crisis. Ministers having an opinion? And willing to take that opinion to cabinet? This must not stand. Or something.
So is that a yes or a no?

You believe or Minister of Justice should be advocating draconian policies - anti-democratic in the words of his boss - without any implications?

It's these little snippets of out political leaders mindset that we must form an opinion on and clearly our MoJ feels that AGS, who have clearly run rings around him, should be even less accountable.
 

Karloff

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I think you're talking about the wrong topic, TBH.

Taoiseach slaps down proposal to ban people taking photos of gardaí on duty

It's nothing to do with the policing report - it was Flanagan's "shoot from the hip" announcement on SOR that he was in favour of making photographing AGS illegal only to be put back in his box by Varadkar in the Dail yesterday.

It's not a "private" opinion when you hit the national airwaves, it must be the responsibility of all Ministers to put forward "policy", so it's fair to assume that if the MoJ is on the public service broadcaster discussing policy changes that it's not his "personal" or "private" opinion.
FG have very strong authoritarian leanings and the Gardai's position in the State is always at risk of being changed while they remain in power. I am relieved at Varadakar's intercession though (even if i suspect a 'time is not yet right' reasoning behind it).
 

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