Whither pre-Christian souls?



pragmaticapproach

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It's usually said that those deserving of it were released from Limbo and Purgatory at the time when Our Lord entered there just after the Resurrection. You can read about it here in the visions of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich if you like, she was a very poor almost illiterate German nun who had such detailed archaeologically accurate visions that Mel Gibson used them for his film:
She had a very active imagination. Had she been born a good few centuries earlier, she would have had hallucinations featuring Odin and Thor, but at least they were Germanic like herself and not a bunch of greasy middle easteners. :)
 

The OD

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Answer - nowhere as far as we know.

Go back asleep.
 

Vega1447

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Give me Tolkien over Emmerich any day

At least Tolkien (at his best) could write...
 

IvoShandor

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Because the whole of Christianity is derived from the Bible. Otherwise everyone could just make it up as they went along
Isn't that what many of the Popes and those outlandish councils did?
 

Roisin3

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Is she a reliable source?
Who knows. Some guy who didn't understand her dialect transcribed, edited, re edited, and so on. I'm not sure if she's the one who claimed black people are black because of their sins or if that was another bed ridden hysteric.
 

QuizMaster

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Isn't that what many of the Popes and those outlandish councils did?
...which is why the Presbyterians, Baptists and other fundamentalist "biblical" christians are the only ones with any kind of consistency.
The real world doesn't relate to their beliefs anymore? Bugger the real world. Now that's what I call faith.
 

yobosayo

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A theological quandary has occurred to me - since the abolition of limbo, what would be the eschatological destiny of pagan, or perhaps more accurately pre-Christian, souls? Clearly, they can't enter heaven, having never been made aware of God, yet neither could they enter hell, as though Original Sin covers all mankind, how could pre-Christians sin against a religion or deity entirely unknown to them? God is incapable of error, yet why should He then decide to create individuals and make them deliberately unaware of His existence?
They who without fault do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with a sincere heart, and try with the help of grace to fulfill his will, known through the dictate of conscience, can attain eternal salvation.

That would be the Roman Catholic position.

Now to answer your last question, the book(s) do not agree with your premise that some were and/or are made deliberately unaware of Deity's existence. Consider:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all the impiety and injustice of mortals who by their injustice suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse, for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

And also:

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

Enoch lived before both Christ and Moses, so not only was no one about the place preaching the Christian gospel, there was likewise no one about the place preaching Moses either. Yet Enoch walked with 'elohim and was not [found], for 'elohim took him.

My use of 'elohim is wholly intentional here, since the one thing that the supposed higher critics never seem to grasp is the import of the names of Deity. When the Torah uses the word, 'elohim, it is speaking of Deity in terms that even a pagan can understand, i.e., to borrow from Sha'ul also called Paolo, when the Torah uses, 'elohim, it is speaking to "his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity", That can be known to even the pagan, as Paul makes plain in the above passage. And if you want to know what eternal power and Deity mean, simply that a glance at the universe tells us that God is God and so can do those things that a God does, like create a universe.

Now for the contrast here, when the Torah uses YHWH as the Name of Deity, it is speaking of the particular Hebrew/Jewish conception of Deity, something, in order words, that a pagan would not necessarily understand, since saying that this being is Deity and has the power of Deity does not tell us the moral nature of Deity.

Enoch did not know YHWH, only 'elohim. And so the story is, as related, Enoch walked with 'elohim. And not, Enoch walked with YHWH.

And to round out, you have that veritable host of intermediate names, which have the eternal power and Deity, but only a glimpse of the moral nature of Deity, and so Abraham did not YHWH, he knew instead 'el Shaddai. Moses himself did not start out with knowing YHWH, but had to ask: If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' what shall I say to them? And Deity did not say, YHWH. That only came later. Way later, after some were already delivered from Egypt.

Now well and truly lastly, to borrow from Juan Luis Segundo, don't think that the above passage from Romans means that humans simply decide to worship idols rather than Deity. No. They are aiming at something else:

The self-deception that draws the human being from worship of the superhuman to worship of the unworthy infrahuman is a means for something else, i.e., injustice. That is what the desires of the human heart are really aiming at. In the idolatry depicted by Paul the real intention of human beings is to justify, on the basis of the divine, the dehumanized relations they want to have with other human beings.

Or as Juan Luis Segundo also said:

If I lack love and justice, I separate myself completely from you, God, and my adoration is nothing more than idolatry.

And the atheists can take some solace from Juan Luis Segundo:

We are more interested in the (apparently dated) antithesis between faith and idolatry than in the (apparently topical) antithesis between faith and atheism. Furthermore, it has to be said at the outset that those who call themselves Christians can occupy, in the more radical antithesis faith/idolatry, either of these positions. In other words, we believe that men are more profoundly divided by their image of God than by the position they take as to whether that image corresponds to something real.

And another way of saying that idolatry = impiety and injustice:

Our falsified and inauthentic ways of dealing with our fellow human beings are allied to our falsification of the idea of God. Our perverse idea of God and our unjust society are in close and terrible alliance.

And to wrap, one more line from Juan for you:

By deforming God we protect our own egotism.

Sorry, almost forgot, but it's not just Paul, but the Torah as well:

I am YHWH your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth...

Then follows the list of those major things that we do to have dehumanized relations with other humans.
 
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Roisin3

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Hahahaha. I like that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a True Believer. I just don't have time for the fantasies or "interior locutions" stuff. Some True Believers have lots of time for that stuff, I'm just one who doesn't especially when it's demonstrably horse sh!t and quite offensive horse sh!t at that.
 

DaveM

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A theological quandary has occurred to me - since the abolition of limbo, what would be the eschatological destiny of pagan, or perhaps more accurately pre-Christian, souls? Clearly, they can't enter heaven, having never been made aware of God, yet neither could they enter hell, as though Original Sin covers all mankind, how could pre-Christians sin against a religion or deity entirely unknown to them? God is incapable of error, yet why should He then decide to create individuals and make them deliberately unaware of His existence?
They're all Mormons. Whether they like it or not.
 

EvotingMachine0197

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The OP is both confused and theologically ignorant. Limbo has not been abolished by the catholic church . The concept "baptism of desire" covers the destiny of all pre Christian souls.Limbo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That's a relatively modern policy, bronze age to middle medieval.

What about all the people who died during the paleollithic, mesolithic and neolithic periods?

What is the current status of the souls of stone age humans?
 

Cellach

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Hmmm a man hitting forty emigrates alone without any family or partner to NZ and continues to post hatred on Irish forum. Now why is that? Where did all this bitterness originate?
Ireland. I would have thought that was obvious.
 

EvotingMachine0197

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Actually he has spouted his usual angry garbage. Concise opinion it is not.
Well, no.

Let's face it, none of this deranged religion nonsense - not a single bit of it - makes a lick of sense whatsoever, and you'd have to be some sort of Special kid at this point of the 21st century to actually swallow a single word of it.

It's a waste of time trying to discover any reason or logic in these holy books. It's all just nonsensical gibberish written by primitive peoples who still wondered where mountains and rainbows came from.
That is concise.

If you're slow, I will decode it for you.

It basically says that religion is for the birds, entirely illogical and without any basis in common or logical sense. There is also a neat and unsubtle reference to the ancient belief that the gods made rain, clouds and rainbows.

Moron.
 

Old Mr Grouser

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A theological quandary has occurred to me - since the abolition of limbo, what would be the eschatological destiny of pagan, or perhaps more accurately pre-Christian, souls? Clearly, they can't enter heaven, having never been made aware of God, yet neither could they enter hell, as though Original Sin covers all mankind, how could pre-Christians sin against a religion or deity entirely unknown to them? God is incapable of error, yet why should He then decide to create individuals and make them deliberately unaware of His existence?

Hullo Tralee,

Can you consult a Bible, please, and have a look at Genesis chapter 15, verse 6: how Abraham trusted in God, and God counted that as righteousness.

And there's the writings of St Paul, most famously his letter to the Romans: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20 ESV)
 

The Owl

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Did the dinosaurs have souls? All the living creatures God made before we came along, how come there is no mention of them? And they lived for millions of years. It's not very fair is it, when you think about it. And why did it take God millions upon millions of years to make us in his own image? Maybe the God could look like anyone he wanted or anything he wanted. Maybe every so often he gets fed up with his looks and changes everything and we're just his latest fad. How do we know that snakes or birds or dogs are not walking/slithering/flying around talking about The One True Dog, or The Great Slitherer, or Big Bird? They might. I'm going to bed. Me head is wrecked now. Goodnight and sweet dreams.
 

Trampas

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You made an ugly and sneering reference to the Catholic tradition of whispering the act of contrition in a recently deceased persons ear something done immediately after a sudden unexpected death and when the viewpoint was that the soul may still be present in the body. I asked you to explain your jibe and now you say you have no religious affiliation. If you have no religious affiliation why are you sneering at the harmless practices of those who do?

Because they are absolutely off the wall bonkers. Irrationality on stilts. Any other questions ?
 

Cornerman

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Did the dinosaurs have souls? All the living creatures God made before we came along, how come there is no mention of them? And they lived for millions of years. It's not very fair is it, when you think about it. And why did it take God millions upon millions of years to make us in his own image? Maybe the God could look like anyone he wanted or anything he wanted. Maybe every so often he gets fed up with his looks and changes everything and we're just his latest fad. How do we know that snakes or birds or dogs are not walking/slithering/flying around talking about The One True Dog, or The Great Slitherer, or Big Bird? They might. I'm going to bed. Me head is wrecked now. Goodnight and sweet dreams.
Apparently, the dinosaurs had their own Jesusaurus, so they're alright. Marysaurus laid an egg and he hatched out - it was a virgin birth too - like the modern Komodo Dragons. That's why we have eggs at Easter.
 


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