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Who are in weakest in society and who will do anything for them?

jcdf

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Sep 8, 2005
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There are SO many things wrong with that post, but the main one is that you CAN'T change the mindset of a group of kids without changing that of their parents.

On top of that - the estates ARE the problem. You cordon people off into a slum and eliminate them from society, then you have to expect them to be disconnected and not to follow the same rules as us.
Perhaps the Government could use some reverse psychology on the Children. Often children who are brought up by abusive drunk fathers tend to become tea-totallers and never drink blaming the drink on their miserable up bringing. If you could think of some way that a similar situation could be applied to the Children of Moyross, you may have a solution.
People in slums have radio, TV and a pair of legs to take them occasionally outside the slums. The Slums are not ghettos, there are no walls around them.
 


Question R24U

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There are SO many things wrong with that post, but the main one is that you CAN'T change the mindset of a group of kids without changing that of their parents.

On top of that - the estates ARE the problem. You cordon people off into a slum and eliminate them from society, then you have to expect them to be disconnected and not to follow the same rules as us.
But you can't leave people on rent supplement but then keep changing where they live so that few become problem estates.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
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The meitheal mentality? It still exists in society, thankfully. But is it enough? when one considers that central government spends 58bn every year - can anyone say that the above marginalised groups get the correct portion of national income once the necessaries eg gardai, courts, a nominal army, an effective health service and education system etc have been paid? Where does the rest go? It seems to go towards subsidies to private pensions, property subsidies through tax and social housing, highly paid unsackable public sector workers, paying people not to work, compensation schemes for all and sundry, 10,500 paintings not on display, a failing health system, e-voting machines and last but not least glossy brochures on how we will fix social problems?
The next government will be Labour who gets the support of the AB voters and Fine Gael which has just become the party of DE voters. Neither will do anything of significance for the 7 most vulnerable groups identified in the OP. Why? Because Labour gets its money from unions, ie public sector workers, and fine gael gets its money from the bosses and corporations. Once they pay the deficit interest, nama interest, gardai, defence forces, other necessities and then looked after their benefactors there will be sfa to spare to spend and the EU will be confining up to 3% deficits. Mentally ill, travellers, asylum seekers, old, disabled,illitereates and children of delinquent parents will just have to wait.
 

atlantic

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doubleglaze

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Abused and neglected animals.:mad:

(And yes - they ARE part of society. I, at any rate, have been adopted into a pack or society by two dogs who are inexplicably fond of me) :).

I'd prefer the society and manners of most animals to that of some humans I know.
 

20000miles

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www.irishliberty.wordpress.com
This sums it up in a nutshell. Usually when a government attempts to solve a problem it ends up making it worse; progressive taxation and generous entitlement programs are no different.

In a previous era, helping the less fortunate was a private affair, driven by genuine care for one's fellow man. Today this function is run predominantly by government and funded involuntarily through taxation. Thus the mentality "I am already paying taxes for these people" will slowly permeate through society, and a slow and painful distrust/disliking of one's fellow man will result. "Taxation makes a stone of the heart" as it were.

A different mentality will permeate through the recipients of entitlements; the notion that they are in fact "entitled" and "deserve" the property of others. Thus, a slow moral decay will set in not just in producers, but non-producers as well.

In a similar vein, as the government engages in ever more intense appropriation from producers and owners to non-producers and non-owners, the incentive to become a producer and owner is diminished and the incentive to become non-productive is increased. Through such a scheme, the overall wealth of society is lower than it otherwise would have been.

Just another way government destorys community.
In addition to this, the actual answer to the thread's question is; we will.

Despite the government's best attempts at pitting us against each other we humans have often banded together to get things done. Consider: Friendly Societies: Voluntary Social Security And More | The Freeman | Ideas On Liberty
 

InReality

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Jan 16, 2009
Messages
48
Who are the weakest in society ?
US/UK
Its an interesting question. TG4 has had some great documentaries on loan sharks in the US , and there was a series on the BBC a while ago about people who use pawn shops. There is also a good book called something like "living on the minimum wage" by an american journalist.

I think all those people would qualify , as the basic problem of access to credit , messes them up , and means they have a very short term perspective on their lives. They also seem to have less "life smarts" I guess than people I would know.

Ireland
I'd have more knowledge on Ireland of course and I think the problem here is a bit more complicated. I believe there is a lot of "hidden" wealth here. A lot of people have more access to money than you might think.
There is very low tax on inheriting farm land for example.
People often get money from extended family through wills in this country. People on social welfare can get loads of additional resources from the SVP , and there are many govt agencies and schemes IF you know how to work them.

So I think the weakest is society are those who do not know how to work the system.
I'd say mental illness is a big part of this. I've had mental illness in the past , and really had no energy to do anything. I basically used up all my savings , instead of applying for a rent allowance for example , as I could not get the energy or motivation to fill out and complete a form !

So the weakest would be.
Animals
Childern in the care of the state ( there is a good agency starting to work there ).
Mentally ill.
Some pensioners.
Old people in hospitals
People in hospital.
Old people in nursing homes.


That would be kinda it for me. These groups have very little power and control over their own fate.
 

InReality

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How much control do the Homeless, disabled, asylum seekers or illiterates have over their own lives?
They are more debatable IMO.

Homeless , very little.
But some people on the street are not homeless, and would have some control over their lives.

Disabled , depends a lot on family background. A wealthy disabled person would have plenty of control. Some good disabled housing also exists and communities. Have groups to avocate for them.

Asylum seekers. Well they had enough control/resourses to get here and claim asylum. Have groups to advocate for them. Have some social network with their fellow asylum seekers.

illiterates. Often enough to get by.
In programs on how to read and write, it seemed to me , that they generally to have gotten on well in society and held down jobs etc. Also would have help from family or been able to adapt around it.

In general , apart from the homeless , I think they would have more resourses than the groups I mentioned earlier.

For example , people in hospital , even with relatives to speak up for them, are still totally at the mercy of the hospital staff.
 

Congalltee

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Nov 10, 2009
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I would revise the list of the weakest in society as being-
1. The mentally ill detained in victorian centres.
2. The real homeless ie about 5000 people who do not have a roof over their heads or have to stay in b&bs.
3. Disabled, and unable to work.
4. The old, who do not have a pension or own their property.
5. Asylum seekers on 19euro per week.
6. Some travellers who marry young, leave school early and are unemployable..
7. Many Illiterates.
8. Children of the havenots.
9. Animals.
10. Prisoners, detained in shocking conditions for a wealthy country (which we still are), in overcrowded cells and required to slop out and ex-prisoners, who are virtually unemployable.

Summary of above: Those without the capacity to work the system.

While I hear politicians talk about the most vulnerable on society, they do not appear to be talking about the above but rather the 420,000 on the Dole, the other 700,000 on non-dole social welfare or basically a quarter of the population.

The middle class cam look after themselves and per most recent polls, 70% of total electorate suport FF/FG who will do nothing for the above . The public sector have strong unions who have looked after their interests very well. The Poverty Industry talk a good game, but who has the inclination and capacity to improve the lot of those who cannot do do themselves?
 

Congalltee

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Nov 10, 2009
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6,210
I would revise the list of the weakest in society as being-
1. The mentally ill detained in victorian centres.
2. The real homeless ie about 5000 people who do not have a roof over their heads or have to stay in b&bs.
3. Disabled, and unable to work.
4. The old, who do not have a pension or own their property.
5. Asylum seekers on 19euro per week.
6. Some travellers who marry young, leave school early and are unemployable..
7. Many Illiterates.
8. Children of the havenots.
9. Animals.
10. Prisoners, detained in shocking conditions for a wealthy country (which we still are), in overcrowded cells and required to slop out and ex-prisoners, who are virtually unemployable.

Summary of above: Those without the capacity to work the system.

While I hear politicians talk about the most vulnerable on society, they do not appear to be talking about the above but rather the 420,000 on the Dole, the other 700,000 on non-dole social welfare or basically a quarter of the population.

The middle class cam look after themselves and per most recent polls, 70% of total electorate suport FF/FG who will do nothing for the above . The public sector have strong unions who have looked after their interests very well. The Poverty Industry talk a good game, but who has the inclination and capacity to improve the lot of those who cannot do do themselves?
This remains the case:
1. Psychiatric wards unfit for human habitation - report - The Irish Times - Mon, Dec 28, 2009

2. Simon Communities of Ireland :: How many people are homeless in Ireland?

3. Chapter 5 Disability and Poverty

...
10. http://www.inspectorofprisons.gov.ie/en/IOP/Mountjoy Report 2009.pdf/Files/Mountjoy Report 2009.pdf
 
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Messages
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I would see the weakest in society as being-
1. The mentally ill detained in victorian centres.
2. The real homeless ie about 5000 people who do not have a roof over their heads or have to stay in b&bs.
3. Disabled, and unable to work.
4. The old, who do not have a pension or own their property.
5. Asylum seekers on 19euro per week.
6. Travellers.
7. Illiterates.

Who will do anything for them?
And how will they pay for them once the public sector and miscellaneous social welfare class are paid for?
Why have above been so marginalised?
Why are tax euros spent on less worthy causes than the above?
Look R24U, adults who are illiterate must want to get help. There are hundreds of voluntary groups available. When I lived in Dublin, I worked with a group out of Dolphin's Barn library.

Travellers get the exact same social welfare payments that settled people get, or as you refer to them as "miscellaneous social welfare class.which is, and forgive me if I am mistaken, very demeaning. There are people on the dole now who have never claimed a penny from the state in the past and they are in desperate straits.

Sick children being turned away from hospitals, waiting for elective surgery, because of lack of funding, leaving them deformed, or becoming more deformed than they are already. Endless stories as we know.

Our tax euros are being used for other things as well, R24U. Expense Accounts for politicians. Golden handshakes for people who were Chairmen or Managers of various State and Semi-State operations. Flights and oversea state visits, and with Paddy's Day upcoming, the queue will be forming now for trips to places that will have show white beaches, wonderful sunshine, and luxery hotels of course. But the bonus there will be that the badly paid workers at the hotels, restaurants etc., will be tipped heavily, by our tax euros.

Those with mental health problems are treated appallingly, I agree. Always been the same. That is an outrage, I agree.

But please do not refer to people who claim social welfare as a "class". That is mean.
 

staunch ff

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Nov 12, 2009
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Still a newbie I did not know about this thread so thanks to who resurrected it.

OECD for a number of years have said ireland has close to 16% on or below the poverty level. Lets call this 600,000 people. Three years ago when the Combat Poverty Agency was a 10 minute walk away I strolled down at lunch time to get some data on this subject that interests me a lot. I came away but material that turned out to be useless and I decided I knew more about the subject than they did.

I will now read every post on this thread to see if I can get a breakdown of exactly who these 600,000 are and exactly why they are in poverty. This will be interesting
 

Congalltee

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Since this thread was written we have seen cuts in social welfare, end of their Christmas double payment and withdrawal of public services, while property tax loopholes remain in place, private pensions and health are massively subsidised and Nama allows developers pay themselves a reasonable income of 200k. They are social payments but for a different class.
 

Liam Treveine

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Nov 4, 2010
Messages
7
Unemployed

Couldn't help but notice that the unemployed were excluded from the list of worst off in society. And I would probably sneak the average working class person in there as well.

Unemployment in Ireland stands at over 400,000. Add to that underemployed people who escape the tax bracket, and former self-employed people not recorded on the live register, as well as other miscellaneous people who fall through the cracks of the welfare state for one reason or another, and the figure is much higher. (The increasing numbers of people who emigrate to the likes of Canada, Australia &c. could also be included in this).

During the “boom” or “Celtic Tiger” years these people played the role of wage labour in Irish society. Their labour produced goods, provided services, contributed to infrastructural development, and, as such, generated the wealth of society. In exchange for this labour they were paid a wage; as high as was possible for the source of labours strength in the market economy (i.e. availability of labour of a given skill under the principles of supply and demand, the strength held by that section of the labour force through trade union representation, &c.), and as low as possible for the side of management under the same principles.

Under this system the workers created wealth with the muscle of their labour, and, in doing so, fed the State and the market capitalist system. Through taxation on wages, taxation on the profits the workers produce for the employer, general consumption and purchasing, participation in the banking sector, providing the material provisions for the employer to do likewise, and further taxation upon all these things, these workers kept continuously feeding the State.

Now, thanks to the greed fuelled and unsustainable nature of capitalism, this has collapsed and been reversed. The state now has to feed these former workers from the dole queues. But, unwillingly to feed them, and unable to take away the bowl for fear of losing their hand, the State now endeavours to provide less and less over time. Death a thousand – what else – CUTS!

Slashing direct payments in Social Welfare, as well the everyday services the worst off in our society depend upon, the State now endorses all the features of a society moving backwards.

The capitalist system has not only run its course, but has now gone into complete decline, and the ruling classes continue to scatter the workers below in order to break their fall. When the State is required to hand feed its people, it is clear that the State has already failed. When the State that needs to feed its people finds itself no longer capable of doing so, the time has come for revolutionary change.

Only by the mass movement of the working classes, driven and determined to wrest the control of society from the hands of the ruling classes and into their own, can this change take place.

To the unemployed, workers and young people alike: bite the hands that feed you, and we can endeavour to feed ourselves.
 

atlantic

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Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
649
Now yer talking ,spot on .These are the people most at risk along with the newly unemployed .
The longtermers and dossers have no debt ,houses for nothing, money for doing nothing and they are still crying and whinging there are not getting enough ,they a bunch of ungrateful yokes.


People who work, who earn between 25 and 70 thousand Euro a year, with two or more children, who have inflated mortgages, and pay every other charge that is levied...

The "working poor"
 

atlantic

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Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
649
capitalism did not fail.Government crony capitalism/corporate socialism,vote buying and central plannning failed(government and central banking ).
The markets(people)eventually called the shots.
Couldn't help but notice that the unemployed were excluded from the list of worst off in society. And I would probably sneak the average working class person in there as well.

Unemployment in Ireland stands at over 400,000. Add to that underemployed people who escape the tax bracket, and former self-employed people not recorded on the live register, as well as other miscellaneous people who fall through the cracks of the welfare state for one reason or another, and the figure is much higher. (The increasing numbers of people who emigrate to the likes of Canada, Australia &c. could also be included in this).

During the “boom” or “Celtic Tiger” years these people played the role of wage labour in Irish society. Their labour produced goods, provided services, contributed to infrastructural development, and, as such, generated the wealth of society. In exchange for this labour they were paid a wage; as high as was possible for the source of labours strength in the market economy (i.e. availability of labour of a given skill under the principles of supply and demand, the strength held by that section of the labour force through trade union representation, &c.), and as low as possible for the side of management under the same principles.

Under this system the workers created wealth with the muscle of their labour, and, in doing so, fed the State and the market capitalist system. Through taxation on wages, taxation on the profits the workers produce for the employer, general consumption and purchasing, participation in the banking sector, providing the material provisions for the employer to do likewise, and further taxation upon all these things, these workers kept continuously feeding the State.

Now, thanks to the greed fuelled and unsustainable nature of capitalism, this has collapsed and been reversed. The state now has to feed these former workers from the dole queues. But, unwillingly to feed them, and unable to take away the bowl for fear of losing their hand, the State now endeavours to provide less and less over time. Death a thousand – what else – CUTS!

Slashing direct payments in Social Welfare, as well the everyday services the worst off in our society depend upon, the State now endorses all the features of a society moving backwards.

The capitalist system has not only run its course, but has now gone into complete decline, and the ruling classes continue to scatter the workers below in order to break their fall. When the State is required to hand feed its people, it is clear that the State has already failed. When the State that needs to feed its people finds itself no longer capable of doing so, the time has come for revolutionary change.

Only by the mass movement of the working classes, driven and determined to wrest the control of society from the hands of the ruling classes and into their own, can this change take place.

To the unemployed, workers and young people alike: bite the hands that feed you, and we can endeavour to feed ourselves.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
4
Disability Services

The weakest in society have always been the disabled like the last budget they took €8 off blind people and there was no out cry even from groups like those who represent the blind.Also I have twin sons with Autism got no Education of this state until 12 years old and booted out at 18. No one ever came from dept. Of Education to ask why are your sons not in school! Everything you have to fight for and they pass the buck from one department to the other in the hope you give up, but I for one will never give up on my Children! Also what's about these so called groups like Barnardos, the Irish Autism Action all I get from them is newsletters that they are now fundraising for this or that but what is thia and that going on they never tell you.They have these fancy we sites but never publish there accounts at the end of the year why? I am involved in organising a conference next march at UCC in Cork 12th which will be frre of charge due to kind sponsorship but the IAA I mentioned above are having a conference in Dublin on 29th November funded by the EU but are charging from €270 down to € 80 for a student to attend why again if yjey are being funded? Every Charity must be made to publish there accounts online and at the end of our conference we will do so.If you know of anybody interested in going please ask them to visit.
LETS-CONNECT AUTISM CONFERENCE 2011, March 12th CORK, UCC UNIVERSITY  AUTISM TRUST IRELAND - SPEAKERS.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
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Autism

I have twins with Autism and they never got education off this state until they where 12 years old and booted out at 18.But my sons where lucky in that they spent 3 years in America and we saw a system that is 10-15 years ahead of us ! It's no good have groups like the Irish Autism Action who all they do is fundraisers and fundraisers and fundraisers but have no plan.On November 29th they do a conference in Dublin funded by the EU and they charge delegates between €270-€80 this is about profit not about Autism and why like Barnardos do they not give a yearly breakdown of there costs why because they have tunnel vision, they believe that there kids will never be adults and that it will all be sorted out before they are teens.my twin sons are now 24 the IAA are around about 4 to 5 years what difference have they made none.Then u have the group that back Dr Wakefield that it's vaccination is the case ,my sons never had it how are they Autistic? In the 24 years of their lives all parties have been in power and none of them did anything! Where was the inspector from the Dept of Education for the first 12 years never called why my kids where not in school, yet the tv licence man did call.The whole think is a joke but I am never going to give up on my sons never that's what they want you to do.I have paid no taxes this year and will refuse to pay ever again until my sons are treated as equals in society.LETS-CONNECT AUTISM CONFERENCE 2011, March 12th CORK, UCC UNIVERSITY  AUTISM TRUST IRELAND - SPEAKERS the real conference for parents with Autism and it's free how due to the generosity of sponsors no eu funding here and why can we be like the Greeks just sit back and let someone else bail us out. The answer to your question is the disabled are the most venerable in society!
 

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