who are you for - Fatah or Hamas?

Meursault

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This is truely depressing, whatever hope there was for Palestine from completely collapsing seems to be receding fast. I cant blame the Israeli government for not giving even the most token acknowlodgement that the PA was on the brink of civil war and that this is something fundementally against their interests, because Olmert and Peretz have been dead men ever since the Lebanon debacle of last year. I just find it disguisting that no one apart from (shudders to heap praise on kleptocrats) the Saudis attempted to do anything about this.
 


MichaelR

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brenners' said:
This is all about the endemic corruption in the Fatah party and the fact that they are having their snouts dragged out of the trough and they can no longer feed themselves on the money meant for the very poor of Palestine who are suffering due to the occupation.
Hamas prefers to *arm* themselves on that same money. Big difference.
 

MichaelR

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Risteard said:
They must destroy the terrorist Zionist state in Palestine.
Have to acknowledge that you are Continuity indeed. From the Hitler alliance of 1939, that is.
 

The Collective.

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Sorry. I dont cliam to have major knoledge to chose between them. But Hamass, seems better.
 

Risteard

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MichaelR said:
Have to acknowledge that you are Continuity indeed. From the Hitler alliance of 1939, that is.
I am not anti-Jewish. I am anti-Occupation.
 

Xipe Totec

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mbari hogun said:
If I was running the show in Israel, I'd empty the jails of Fatah-aligned prisoners and let the situation resolve itself. If they were smart, they'd resist getting sucked in to Palestinian infighting. HAMAS and Islamic Jihad have tried, and will keep trying, to force some sort of fight with Israel to distract Palestinians from their own internal problems.
It's a pretty old trick, and I'm surprised the Israelis have only started exporting the conflict in the last 18 months or so.

Also: the Israelis are a distraction? If you seriously believe that, I'd love to hear your evidence.


IDF PsyOp Commando Yanshuf said:
Don't worry this spreads very fast from one region to another. It took a few years and terror attacks struck Europe. I suppose eventually you'll be a target too.

But for a guy who supports terror it shouldn't be too strange for you.
Terrorism is a reaction, it does not emerge from nowhere.

There are perfectly justifiable reasons for terrorism against the Europe, and it would be a positive development for a terrorist campaign here provided it was directed against the proper targets.
 

Rich OC

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yanshuf said:
A question for the Irish left, since they have to decide now whom to support - Fatah, their long time friends or Hamas - their new epitome of the underdog cooporating with them against the American world control.

I know I would, if I had to choose, prefere the Fatah, but only because they are much less barbaric in their killings, they haven't yet thrown a Hamas man from the 15'th floor.
The Palestinian people have been messed around by everybody for a long time before 1948 and used as a proxy for many peoples own battles since 1948, with their Arab friends being as guilty as anybody. They are now heading towards meltdown in Gaza with the West Bank very likely to follow. Fatah have completely betrayed their people and become the worst kind of Cleptocrats. The choice of Hamas, who were the only real other choice in the election, leads to world isolation.

Fatah have continued running the security forces despite the election (a coup in anybodies language) and then have the neck to call Fatahs attempts to form a security force illegal. This power struggle has ultimately led to the clashes we see in Gaza now.

Fatah were were only one grouping within the PLO and there are potentially other forces that could re-emerge given the way things are going. The PFLP or the DFLP (to a lesser extent) could well take to the streets also - Fun for all the family.

If I had to choose I would say a plague on both of their houses and go for PFLP to emerge as a stabilising force.
 

unaligned

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Rich OC said:
yanshuf said:
A question for the Irish left, since they have to decide now whom to support - Fatah, their long time friends or Hamas - their new epitome of the underdog cooporating with them against the American world control.

I know I would, if I had to choose, prefere the Fatah, but only because they are much less barbaric in their killings, they haven't yet thrown a Hamas man from the 15'th floor.
The Palestinian people have been messed around by everybody for a long time before 1948 and used as a proxy for many peoples own battles since 1948, with their Arab friends being as guilty as anybody. They are now heading towards meltdown in Gaza with the West Bank very likely to follow. Fatah have completely betrayed their people and become the worst kind of Cleptocrats. The choice of Hamas, who were the only real other choice in the election, leads to world isolation.

Fatah have continued running the security forces despite the election (a coup in anybodies language) and then have the neck to call Fatahs attempts to form a security force illegal. This power struggle has ultimately led to the clashes we see in Gaza now.

Fatah were were only one grouping within the PLO and there are potentially other forces that could re-emerge given the way things are going. The PFLP or the DFLP (to a lesser extent) could well take to the streets also - Fun for all the family.

If I had to choose I would say a plague on both of their houses and go for PFLP to emerge as a stabilising force.
An intelligent and realistic assesment of the situation. Makes a change from the usual bluster and-illinformed rubbish esposued on this topic.
 

rockyracoon

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Neither. They should get their respective acts together and further the politcal cause of their people. Fighting over peanuts only furthers the obstructionist tactics of the present Israeli government.
 

Thac0man

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Xipe Totec said:
Terrorism is a reaction, it does not emerge from nowhere.

There are perfectly justifiable reasons for terrorism against the Europe, and it would be a positive development for a terrorist campaign here provided it was directed against the proper targets.
That is almost the stupidest thing I have ever read. Grow up.
 

MichaelR

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Risteard said:
MichaelR said:
Have to acknowledge that you are Continuity indeed. From the Hitler alliance of 1939, that is.
I am not anti-Jewish. I am anti-Occupation.
You have not mentioned an end to the 1967 ovccupation, but an end to the state itself.

Then again - your Army was always there. At least no turn-arounds.
 

brenners'

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While I don’t agree with many of the tactics used by Hamas I do think that they are a product of the occupation and the position they find themselves in as a result of the barbaric and illegal actions of the Israeli army. It fails to go reported but the security forces are involved in the shooting of a huge number of civilians in the occupied territories on an on going basis, in 2006 320 Palestinian civilians where killed compared to just 23 Israelis killed by the militants in that same year. The ongoing oppression would make the apartheid government in old SA look like the teddy bears pick nick, Palestinians are arrested and harassed on a daily basis, prevented from going to work, after an armed action by somebody in a village most of the village is flattened, those living and working in Israel face segregation etc. and all on the back of their land effectively being stolen by an occupying force who use religion as a justification for this theft. In those circumstances and in the face of such oppression resistance is not only inevitable but its continuation is insured.
 

drbob1972

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yanshuf said:
giving the gaza strip is hamas dominated, yes, the Irish left and the european left will have to choose.
why ? as long as they just keep knocking the sh1te of out of each other and leave us and Israel alone does it matter much ? or am i being rather naive and could it expand into a bigger issue in the region?
 

beardyboy

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The toughest hide will stand the longest - then you support them
 

rockyracoon

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drbob1972 said:
yanshuf said:
giving the gaza strip is hamas dominated, yes, the Irish left and the european left will have to choose.
why ? as long as they just keep knocking the sh1te of out of each other and leave us and Israel alone does it matter much ? or am i being rather naive and could it expand into a bigger issue in the region?
Wow. The history is on your doorstep and you come up with this statement. Its the old English idea. As long as nationalists beat the sh*te out of themselves, we'll continue to rule. How about the people who have no country and infrastructure to carry on their daily lives? Who live as a substandard class? I really am losing all hope.
 

drbob1972

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rockyracoon said:
drbob1972 said:
yanshuf said:
giving the gaza strip is hamas dominated, yes, the Irish left and the european left will have to choose.
why ? as long as they just keep knocking the sh1te of out of each other and leave us and Israel alone does it matter much ? or am i being rather naive and could it expand into a bigger issue in the region?
Wow. The history is on your doorstep and you come up with this statement. Its the old English idea. As long as nationalists beat the sh*te out of themselves, we'll continue to rule. How about the people who have no country and infrastructure to carry on their daily lives? Who live as a substandard class? I really am losing all hope.
the world is full of injustices and unfairness do you really think this one is any more important or relevant to Europe (apart from the strategic - read oil - importance of the middle east) than Dafur, Sri Lanka, etc, etc or perhaps is it because it resonates with your personal experiences / perceptions of NI that you feel it should?
 
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Hamas - all the way. Fatah are nothing but gangsters. It's obviously devastating to see Palestinians fighting each other while the Americans and Israelis watch from the sidelines chuckling away, but Abbas’ Fatah have taken American training, weapons and money and have clearly colluded with Israel against Hamas. They are the enemies of the Palestinian people and an obstacle to the liberation of Palestine. Hopefully Hamas can smoke the scum out.
 

PatMcL

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Outside_The_Line said:
Hamas - all the way. Fatah are nothing but gangsters. It's obviously devastating to see Palestinians fighting each other while the Americans and Israelis watch from the sidelines chuckling away, but Abbas’ Fatah have taken American training, weapons and money and have clearly colluded with Israel against Hamas. They are the enemies of the Palestinian people and an obstacle to the liberation of Palestine. Hopefully Hamas can smoke the scum out.

Nothing on Hamas being the worst kind of Islamic fundamnetalist who have quite a history of abusing their own people. They are Iranian proxies and are armed and financed by them. So for the ordinary Palestinian it is from the frying pan into the fire. What freedom they had to give an expression will now be stamped out by Hamas, a sickening outcome.
 

Thac0man

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PatMcL said:
Nothing on Hamas being the worst kind of Islamic fundamnetalist who have quite a history of abusing their own people. They are Iranian proxies and are armed and financed by them. So for the ordinary Palestinian it is from the frying pan into the fire. What freedom they had to give an expression will now be stamped out by Hamas, a sickening outcome.
I agree with that. Hamas have been working hard to destroy the painfully built political and civic institutions that would underpin any Palistinian state. In doing so they have also removed the possibility of running future elections, which got them into power in the first place. I don't believe that many who voted Hamas into power envisioned or wanted that.

Their next step? Incite Israel to re-occupy the Gaza strip causing heavy casualties. That will fuel their campaign further, much in the same way as it fuels those sentiments of a left leaning slant in the West that support them (see above posts for examples).

It is often said that a lack of hope is what fuels terrorism in the occupied territories. The fact that Hamas is working hard to remove all hope and any alternative, leaving only itself, is disgusting. Hamas is a means to its own end. They don't care about the lives of the Palistinians. Much like the idiologies here that seek to show support for Hamas.
 


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