who are you for - Fatah or Hamas?

L'Chaim

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As far as I'm concerned, leave them at it. They can knock themselves out or kill each other off for all I care. I've no sympathy for either side and no preference either
 


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One of the stock criticisms of imperialism is choosing sides or interference in a country's internal affairs, but some on the left are equally as guilty. The left as just as prone to sticking their noses in and supporting groups that they think they have something in common with, while ignoring the crimes of the group in question or deluding themselves with the lame excuse that these crimes are really just a natural reaction to a conflict situation. Just as the right called Suharto a moderate at heart, the left are often guilty of the same thing. It was this delusion that allowed them to condem the US attacks on North Vietnam, but to give the North a free pass on their bullying of Laos and Cambodia. At bottom, it is the same arrogance at work- the arrogance of the white man who presumes to understand conflicts that have nothing to do with him, but yet can be just as easily reduced to the good v evil paradigm that he learned when watching Star Wars as a kid. But like most conservative bourgeois thought (and there is nothing more conservative than left-wing ideology), their support for one group or another is grounded more in their self image than in any understanding of what that group pretends to represent. When they decide to support Hamas or Chavez, what they are really saying is that they are supporters of the underdog, and that they are better and more moral than the mainstream (regardless of what evils the underdogs do). From the point of view of those they support, they are what Lenin might have called "useful idiots", and are excellent for propoganda. Their world view reminds me of Regan's foreign policy of supporting all sorts of evil as long as it was an anti-communist evil- the left have the same view of supporting anyone as long as they are anti-American.
This Hamas/Fatah thing is more of the same- there doesnt have to be a good guy and a bad guy. Both of them could be bad, and in any case, the last thing that region needs is more outside interference. Why support one or the other when both of them, at the end of the day, will see you as yet another stupid kuffaar that can be used to score propoganda points? It is said that Fatah is a corrupt group, but this was no problem for the left when they were cannonizing Arafat. Now Hamas are the new boy-band that the lefties will support (at least until Ikea opens or the Premiership kicks off), ignoring where their funding comes from, and blithely ignoring their murders or saying that it is ok because the other side are killers too. Meanwhile, the white man's role as the fumbling idiot who is in over his head with the wool over his eyes is re-confirmed. The left should wake up- there are no innocents in this conflict, and it is really just a matter of which murderer you prefer.
 
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The problem with Hamas is that their military wing is basically acting on it's own agenda. They have some smart people within their political administration but they're as undermined from their own military as by the israeli's.
 

drbob1972

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A guy called Dave said:
The problem with Hamas is that their military wing is basically acting on it's own agenda. They have some smart people within their political administration but they're as undermined from their own military as by the israeli's.
kinda like SF ? ;)

sorry was just too tempting not to troll
 
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drbob1972 said:
A guy called Dave said:
The problem with Hamas is that their military wing is basically acting on it's own agenda. They have some smart people within their political administration but they're as undermined from their own military as by the israeli's.
kinda like SF ? ;)

sorry was just too tempting not to troll
Closer than you think. Problem is that whenever Hamas do try to bring in a military guy to the admin, the Israelis are quite keen on bumping them off.
 

fisk

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You guys are nuts how can you compare Hamas and sinn Fein and say they are similiar
 

Bogwarrior

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I actually see more of a comparison between PSF and Fatah.
 

mbari hogun

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Xipe Totec said:
It's a pretty old trick, and I'm surprised the Israelis have only started exporting the conflict in the last 18 months or so.

Also: the Israelis are a distraction? If you seriously believe that, I'd love to hear your evidence.
HAMAS has existed since the first intifada, and Palestinian infighting dates back to the rejectionist front and even earlier. So I don't think this is something that's started in the last 18 months, nor is it another diabolical Israeli trick. Although Israel definately saw HAMAS as a useful counterbalance to Fatah's dominance, at least in the early days, it's not like they've loaded up the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade or the Al-Qassam Brigades with weapons and set them loose on each other. Not everything is a Jewish conspiracy, in other words.

Ans yes, at this point in the fighting, an attack on Israel would be a smart ploy by either side to provoke a reaction and force a bit of solidarity on the Palestinian armed groups, remind them who the common enemy is, etc. That would delay the all-out civil war that's in the cards, at least for a little while, but it might be too late for that. HAMAS are apparently prepared to wipe out Fatah's armed presence in Gaza, who knows when things will cook off in the West Bank.
 

Ciaran

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I am not sure how i feel about this, on the one hand i have huge admiration for Hamas' social schemes and the fact that they are obviously intertwined with the grass roots palestianian people on the other hand as a republican socialist is believe that all states should be secular and have an aversion to anti democratic islamic states. I understand that people turn that way as a result of desperation and in this case Fatah may have reaped what they have sown by their corruption and pro western tendencies. It is a shame as we are looking at a repartitioned palestine with the Gaza strip a sitting duck for the Isrealis and Yanks to mount full scale attacks.
 

pluralist

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Belfastlad said:
None, they should both join together and give the zionist scum what they deserve.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 929259.ece

extract:-

"The academic boycott resonates with earlier boycotts of Jews, whether those of medieval Europe or the Third Reich. The history of anti-Semitism is in part the history of boycotts of Jews. Each boycott derives from a principle of exclusion: Jews and/or the Jewish State are to be excluded from public life, from the community of nations, because they are dangerous and malign. We see an essential continuity here, but even if we are wrong about this, the boycott has indeed been an essential tool of anti-Semites for at least a thousand years. And who but the crassest of individuals, those least sensitive to the burden of anti-Semitism’s history on Jews, would wish to impose precisely that sanction on the Jewish State today?

Second, it is predicated on the defamation of Jews. The Jewish State, in pursuance of its racist ideology, is perceived as pure aggressor, and the Palestinians as pure victims. The boycotters would deny to Jews the rights that they uphold for other peoples. They adhere to the principle of national self-determination, except in the Jews’ case. They affirm international law, except in Israel’s case. They are outraged by the Jewish nature of the State of Israel, but are untroubled (say) by the Islamic nature of Iran or of Saudi Arabia. They regard Zionism as uniquely pernicious, rather than as merely another nationalism. They are indifferent to Jewish suffering, while being sensitive to the suffering of nonJews. They overstate, on every occasion, and beyond reason, any case that could be made against Israel’s actions, and wildly overstate the significance of the Israel/Palestine conflict – indeed, they put Jews at the centre of world affairs.

Longstanding anti-Semites now embrace “anti-Zionism” as a cover for their Jew-hatred. This is because, in relation to Israel, the antiSemite finds a protected voice. The desire to destroy Jews has been reconfigured as the desire to destroy or dismantle the Jewish State. Boycotters may have Jewish friends, they may be Jews themselves – but in supporting a boycott they have put themselves in anti-Semitism’s camp. "
 

fergalr

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Hamas indoctrinate children in the Gaza Strip and elsewhere to hate Jews. They're taught that Jews are subhuman and that they are cannibals. And of course they're offering social schemes... bread and circuses, whjatever keeps the people loyal. Or silent.

I'd like neither of these tantalising options. I'd rather see a massive peacekeeping force flood the Palestinian territories, disarm all violent groups and provide the basic living requirements needed by the population while a genuine, peaceful and democratic solution to the clusterfcukk that is Palestine is sorted out at a regional level.
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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fergalr said:
Hamas indoctrinate children in the Gaza Strip and elsewhere to hate Jews. They're taught that Jews are subhuman and that they are cannibals. And of course they're offering social schemes... bread and circuses, whjatever keeps the people loyal. Or silent.

I'd like neither of these tantalising options. I'd rather see a massive peacekeeping force flood the Palestinian territories, disarm all violent groups and provide the basic living requirements needed by the population while a genuine, peaceful and democratic solution to the clusterfcukk that is Palestine is sorted out at a regional level.
your a fool. this is not a problem that can be solved by a group hug palistineians don't teach there children hatred, the state of isreal does that through it's policies of attack an subjeation and treating that nation as little more than a bantustand
 

fergalr

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Well, I don't think I am a fool. And I'm not the one turning to knee-jerk rude dismissals.

I have a little proof to back up my claims.

There's a weird one, here http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASaw_14/5046_14.htm

And then there's direct quotes from school textbooks. This is what children are taught:


Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs said:
The textbooks used in the Palestinian Authority school system, from elementary through high school, are replete with strong expressions of hatred towards Israel, negation of its right to exist and praise for the struggle against it, as well as antisemitic expressions against the Jews.

In these textbooks, Israel is described as "a country of gangs, born in crime." The Jews are arrogant and sly traitors, and Zionism is a racist movement and a "germ."

From this point of view, the Oslo Accords are described as "a move to get the Palestine Liberation Army into the territories," and support for jihad is emphasized.
 

fergalr

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I don't see why you seek to be so confrontational. I've had some colourful exchanges here with people I don't agree with and I've managed to keep things fairly civil. You're coming across as a bit of a dick.

There are direct quotes there and, while I'm sorry if the Anti-Defamation Leage and Israeli Foreign Ministry aren't good enough for you, I think they will satisfy a great deal of fair-minded people.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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I'm for Israel and with a bit of luck Hamas and Fatah will kill each other and cancel each other out. Funny how on one hand they moan about the West stopping money for schools or hospitals but they seem to have no problems getting armed to the teeth.
 

timhorgan

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You're coming across as a bit of a dick.

There are direct quotes there and, while I'm sorry if the Anti-Defamation Leage and Israeli Foreign Ministry aren't good enough for you, I think they will satisfy a great deal of fair-minded people.
You're coming across as a bit of a dick in a big way yourself ha ha.

The ADL run by racist anti-Irish Zionist Abe Foxman who has a pathological hatred of Ireland, Mary Robinson and all things Irish



And the Israel MFA run by another American spiv, the anti-Irish Dore Gold who was found out as a liar in the Dail when he testified there.

 
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