Why are nearly one in six of working age on social welfare in past decade?

patslatt

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Fine Gael TD Billy Timmins says the government needs to prioritise social welfare spending on the most vulnerable in society and those unable to work again but he is highly critical of the government's failure to encourage into work the disproportionately large 15% plus of the working age population since 2001 claiming incapacity benefit,unemployment,lone parent and safety net benefits. See FG criticises some welfare pay increases during boom - The Irish Times - Thu, Nov 25, 2010

The causes of this failure include:
-The government's constant, foolish increases in welfare benefits designed to head off criticism about its treatment of the low income groups,an "Inchidoney" approach it preferred instead of seriously dealing with the problem,according to Timmins.
-Increased social welfare benefits make work unattractive compared to minimum wage jobs.
-In the mid-1990s,the International Literacy Survey showed that Ireland's functional illiteracy rate was very high at 23% among the adult population,which is bound to limit job opportunities for the unskilled.
-FAS's failures:The government's very generous billion euro a year FAS budget for job training made little dent on the unemployed because FAS operations were too scattered around the country for political reasons and FAS was not held sufficiently accountable for results in getting jobs for its trainees.
-Social workers in the Department of Social Welfare don't advise government well on how to reduce welfare dependancy because of an unconscious fear of diminishing their client base of welfare dependants.
-The sentimental Irish attitude towards social welfare dependancy precludes a "tough love"
approach to dependancy such as that adopted in the USA.

In the US during Clinton's presidency,after decades of failure of federal programmes that created welfare dependancy (the phrase "babies having babies" summed it up),the federal government sent most social welfare funds back to the American states to manage as they see fit.Thanks to tax competition between states,the states are inclined to be parsimonious.

Many states introduced lifetime limits of five years on welfare dependancy and demanded that people accept work or be cut off benefits. Jobs were plentiful then and many found work,usually starting out in low paid work but gaining in pay over time. Recent figures in The Economist show that the number of welfare dependants was cut in half roughly since the states took over. In some states,there was great hardship for some marginally employable people with no work discipline and people who may never have worked. I saw a news clip showing mostly black American lone parent mothers being bussed for about four hours a day to work in a factory for very low wages.

Many countries such as Germany and the UK have noticed the successful aspects of this US programme and copied it but the UK's attempt to copy it has been feeble according to a recent comment in The Times. In Ireland,there is a vague plan for splitting up FAS.
 


Cael

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Because capitalism dosnt work!!! 25 MILLION with no work in the EU.
 

patslatt

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Friedman's 100% employment

Because capitalism dosnt work!!! 25 MILLION with no work in the EU.
As economist Milton Friedman wryly noted,unemployment can be abolished at the stroke of a pen by designating the unemployed as civil servants assigned to home duty! Socialist economies don't need to properly price labour,so underemployment in unproductive jobs can't be measured.
 

Cael

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As economist Milton Friedman wryly noted,unemployment can be abolished at the stroke of a pen by designating the unemployed as civil servants assigned to home duty! Socialist economies don't need to properly price labour,so underemployment in unproductive jobs can't be measured.
Everything that Milton Friedman said has been proven to be wrong. The man was a charlatan. The US needed someone to tell them in the 1970s that massive trade deficits were OK, and sure enough, Friedman told the US ruling class what it wanted to hear - and was richly rewarded for admiring the Emperor's new clothes.

Socialist economics dosnt need to price labour, because human working activity is not a commodity. Its what we are as human beings.
 

Kevin Parlon

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A good west wickla man, is Billy Timmins.
 

Tony Soprano

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He's dead right. Too mant lazy b@stards sitting around all day watching Jeremy Kyle and ethen expecting that the state will give them a free house/healthcare/schoolbooks etc.

You'll spot these types a mile away----They are the ones complaining that "the Polish get everything". They are the ones watching sky sports whilst St Vincent de Paul are delivering their weekly bags of coal/shopping.

I want these lazy ************************************s dealt with, once and for all!! Leeches is all they are!
 

tigerben

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Well in Ireland and England lone parent's can have children without the worry that working parent's have. Lone Parent allowance should be capped, anyone can make a mistake but having two,three and four children is a lifestyle choice.
As for long term doler's, My B-I-L is one and he say's his never going to work again, They have a council house, rent is after being reduced, and his quite happy with life and able to head out, go to the bookie's and his dart's.
They also have a S.V dE P in their area and are well in there and get stuff for free and are delighted, and laugh at us for both working, and saying we should play the system. I will never give so much as a brass cent to the St.V.de P after seen them in the local community giving people who they know personally thng's just like Bertie there, their buddies, and not really in need.
He has been out of work 2.5yrs and has never got a phone call or offer of a course for the dole office,so the people should,nt worry what the minister say's, nothing will be done.
 

bob3344

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Well in Ireland and England lone parent's can have children without the worry that working parent's have. Lone Parent allowance should be capped, anyone can make a mistake but having two,three and four children is a lifestyle choice.
We are in a situation in Ireland whereby it is very expensive for working people to have kids due to huge childcare costs, whereas the long term unemployed actually benefit financially by having large families.

This is economic suicide longterm.

Was reading the story on the indo website about the traveller who killed his father. He is one of TEN children. Wonder how many of them are contributing given that traveller unemployment was at something like 80% during the boom.

Simply cannot go on.

Child benefit should be stopped after the 2nd child.

As for long term doler's, My B-I-L is one and he say's his never going to work again, They have a council house, rent is after being reduced, and his quite happy with life and able to head out, go to the bookie's and his dart's.
We need to reduce the dole after x number of years to force such people to take up a job in a shop, restaurant, hotel etc. There are signs up around dublin for such jobs, but it often isn't worth peoples while to take them up & lose benefits.

Again, this cannot continue. We can't keep importing chinese & eastern europeans to do unskilled jobs while we pay unskilled Irish to do nothing.
 

drjimryan2

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employed
unemployed
sick/disability
unemployable
downright lazy..........


each category should be looked at 'stand alone'....
 

slumdog1971

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employed
unemployed
sick/disability
unemployable
downright lazy..........


each category should be looked at 'stand alone'....
You're right

We should throw in
Travellers
Blacks
Jews
Italians
Arabs
and Clare people.

I'm sick to me back teeth of 'em all sponging off the state
 

Camper Van

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We are in a situation in Ireland whereby it is very expensive for working people to have kids due to huge childcare costs, whereas the long term unemployed actually benefit financially by having large families.

This is economic suicide longterm.

Was reading the story on the indo website about the traveller who killed his father. He is one of TEN children. Wonder how many of them are contributing given that traveller unemployment was at something like 80% during the boom.

Simply cannot go on.

Child benefit should be stopped after the 2nd child.



We need to reduce the dole after x number of years to force such people to take up a job in a shop, restaurant, hotel etc. There are signs up around dublin for such jobs, but it often isn't worth peoples while to take them up & lose benefits.

Again, this cannot continue. We can't keep importing chinese & eastern europeans to do unskilled jobs while we pay unskilled Irish to do nothing.
All common sense points. No hope of implementation of same. I had to laugh at the dead travellers brother on RTE when interviewed over his "disgust" at the 18 month sentence that was handed down. "Shurr I did 5 years meeself fir sometun fyar liss".

Middle class solid citizens pull down their trousers and take it in the ass per usual.
 
Last edited:

Camper Van

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You're right

We should throw in
Travellers
Blacks
Jews
Italians
Arabs
and Clare people.

I'm sick to me back teeth of 'em all sponging off the state
Harsh on the Italians and Jews I think. Otherwise by Lordy Lefty you go guy.
 

muffin

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whereas the long term unemployed actually benefit financially by having large families.

Child benefit should be stopped after the 2nd child.

We need to reduce the dole after x number of years to force such people to take up a job in a shop, restaurant, hotel etc.

Again, this cannot continue. We can't keep importing chinese & eastern europeans to do unskilled jobs while we pay unskilled Irish to do nothing.
Totally correct there. There are certain people not only on long term unemployment benefiting in some cases during the boom but others like working on the black market as well without even paying taxes. But they still get state pensions, etc. Its totally unsustainable.
 

patslatt

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Israel's cutback

We are in a situation in Ireland whereby it is very expensive for working people to have kids due to huge childcare costs, whereas the long term unemployed actually benefit financially by having large families.

This is economic suicide longterm.

Was reading the story on the indo website about the traveller who killed his father. He is one of TEN children. Wonder how many of them are contributing given that traveller unemployment was at something like 80% during the boom.

Simply cannot go on.

Child benefit should be stopped after the 2nd child.



We need to reduce the dole after x number of years to force such people to take up a job in a shop, restaurant, hotel etc. There are signs up around dublin for such jobs, but it often isn't worth peoples while to take them up & lose benefits.

Again, this cannot continue. We can't keep importing chinese & eastern europeans to do unskilled jobs while we pay unskilled Irish to do nothing.
Recently,the Israeli government cut back on children's allowance on the belief that two groups were leeching off the state,the Ultra Orthodox Jews and the Arab Israelis. The Ultra Orthodox are all involved in religious activities and don't work. They are a major obstacle to the peace process given their belief that the West Bank belongs to the Jews in the Bible.As for the Arab Israelis,their fertility rates are huge given the persistence of the old fashioned culture of keeping their women "barefoot and pregnant".
 

muffin

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Recently,the Israeli government cut back on children's allowance on the belief that two groups were leeching off the state,the Ultra Orthodox Jews and the Arab Israelis. The Ultra Orthodox are all involved in religious activities and don't work. They are a major obstacle to the peace process given their belief that the West Bank belongs to the Jews in the Bible.As for the Arab Israelis,their fertility rates are huge given the persistence of the old fashioned culture of keeping their women "barefoot and pregnant".
Please dont harp on about their government. We are not from Israel. They have alot of problems and their religious ideas are obsticles for alot of it. We are not strict religions at all. We do our own thing but dont let it interfere with life and working.:shock:
 

jimwin

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They certainly do need take measures to combat fraud and incentivise employment for all persons of a working age - including people with disabilities. I work in the area of disability and the successive Governments have paid lip service to the capacity and abilities of people with disabilities to work. However, the number of people claiming disability allowance has risen above 100,000 for the first time ever, costing taxpayers more than €1.1 billion annually.

The Government realises it needs to do something to support people to find employment and make a contribution to society. There is a lot of fraud? Yes, absolutely and that needs to be tackled. But many, many people on welfare have never been supported to find work or training and have been left to live on the dole. I am using disability as an example only

Meanwhile they have been busy in the Department:

Value for Money and Policy Review Initiative » Finance » Corporate Publications » Policy & Legislation » Department of Social Protection
 

muffin

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They certainly do need take measures to combat fraud and incentivise employment for all persons of a working age - including people with disabilities. I work in the area of disability and the successive Governments have paid lip service to the capacity and abilities of people with disabilities to work. However, the number of people claiming disability allowance has risen above 100,000 for the first time ever, costing taxpayers more than €1.1 billion annually.

The Government realises it needs to do something to support people to find employment and make a contribution to society. There is a lot of fraud? Yes, absolutely and that needs to be tackled. But many, many people on welfare have never been supported to find work or training and have been left to live on the dole. I am using disability as an example only

Meanwhile they have been busy in the Department:

Value for Money and Policy Review Initiative******»******Finance******»******Corporate Publications******»******Policy & Legislation******»******Department of Social Protection
You need to wake up alot more if you are working for people with disabilities. Alot of them are out of work and there are not many incentives for them to get into work. They are in serious trap of poverty now as employers are not interested in working with people with disabilities as they see them as an hinderance which is ridiculous. I have a cousin who has a disability and I know alot even in the boom who cant even get work either. They are not your giniea pigs for projects or incentives or plans. They should get jobs like any other ordinary citizen.
 

muffin

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The Government realises it needs to do something to support people to find employment and make a contribution to society. There is a lot of fraud? Yes, absolutely and that needs to be tackled. But many, many people on welfare have never been supported to find work or training and have been left to live on the dole. I am using disability as an example only [/url]
Am disgusted if people can fraud disability because by large alot can't as there are strict guidelines for it. They are extremely vulnerable crowd. 85% of them are unemployed even in the boom time years.
 

muffin

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Harsh on the Italians and Jews I think. Otherwise by Lordy Lefty you go guy.
Seriously, we dont need to start isolating certain groups. I know you are kidding but careful because it is not fair on people and we dont want a racist country. All we want to do is protect the vulnerable in society. Fraud is not accepted and is wrong. Majority would be good people but unfortunately there are some who do fraud.
 


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