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Why, as an athiest, perhaps, lapsed/pissed off catholic, Papa Francisco gives me some hope


corelli

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
4,478
Right, just speaking for myself, this is how I view matters generally.

I am a putative christian, in that I believe in the christian ideal, that you help the less well off/those who are persecuted and/or discriminated against, without question. I accept everyone as my brothe/sister, without exception. I fully realise that the RC Church have a way to come in that regard, so I am keeping my distance, pro-tem.

I also am a student of history, recent, and particularly, of the Holy See/Vatican.

If you have a slight knowledge of recent Papal history you will realise that, to recent date, "Francis" is more of a "Johannes"/"John XXIII"/John Paul I, then a John Paul II or a Benedict XVI. That is a good thing.

Some simple examples.

John XXIII replaced the austere and, very, magesterial, Pius XII. He was fat, short and pretty down to earth. He called Vatican II. John, that is .

Francis has replaced the very magesterial and austere Benedict. With the greatest will in the world, he, Benedict, was incapable of communicating outside of very select thelogical circles. He was also, lets not pretend, very fond of dressing up in all the liturgical finery. A lot of the pontifical dress that was popular/worn pre Vatican II saw a return. Be it the ermine/fur trimmed Mozetta, (the purple short cape worn over the white "cassock" and lace "rochet" which, in his wildest days, John Paul II would never have worn, or the, equally, fur trimmed, cap, known as the "camuro", both of which Benedict re-introduced. Of course, best known, is the "shoes of the fisherman" or the traditional red shoes which Benedict re-introduced with a bang. John Paul II, in fairness, wore pretty bog standard brown slip-ons.

What have we with Francis?

Bog standard black shoes and socks, aparently given to him before leaving Argentina for Conclave, as his own pair were pretty past use.

No rochet or mozetta on the balcony of St. Peters upon election. He even refused to intone the latin benediction. That, for any student of these things, is a huge slap in the face for the old fashioned "tridentine" groupings that Benedict had sought to support and re-introduce into the mainstream. Take it as read that the "old latin mass", and its supporters, with all its associated dressing up, is dead in this pontificate. The use of Latin is also dead. Benedict gave his important sermons in the old language. Francis uses the vernacular and seems ill disposed to Latin, given, lets be honest, no bugger outside the Vatican uses it anymore.

John Paul I was the first to refuse the "Coronation" withe the "tripple crown", or Tiregnum, and also the first to walk on his own two feet, forgoing, but not always, the old papal chair, which was carried aloft by the "gentleman of his Holiness". Francis seems insistant on meeting and greeting people there to meet him. No secutiry considerations bother him, much to the annoyance of his security team, according to the Italian press. Of course, bitched to by the Curia who know he is going to, shortly, give them a royal shafting.

I will add to this tomorrow, but it's way late!!
 

ocianain

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Messages
2,299
JPII as well as BXVI struck me as undisiplined intellectuals, the kind of people who see talking as a virtue....I don't share that perspective. It's too early to tell regarding Francis I....but if he believes Truth can be known and not just talked about....he could be a game changer....we'll see.
 

NYCKY

Moderator
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
13,101
Corelli, I feel your OP is a bit over the top. You are coming across as someone is pissed rather than a pissed off Catholic. In fairness I can't disagree with much of what you say but not sure it's worthy of it's own thread. The Pope is wearing different socks than his predecessors and plains shoes, woohoo.

Let's not get carried away just yet. I agree that symbolism matters but it's early days and let's give it a bit more time for his papacy to flesh out (and hopefully flushout too).
 

Boy M5

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
21,731
The BBC News channel last night showed that he shares his daily mass with the Vatican staff.
Ratzi is a Holy man who wasn't inneffectual but wasn't a politican and a debilitated JPII left an over strong Curia. He was strong enough to stand down for a man vigorous man.
 

derryman

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
10,843
Ok Correlli you have my full attention (genuinely) so please do continue. I will reserve comment until you have completed your post.
 

LamportsEdge

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
21,894
May I ask the OP why he as a mod (I believe) has launched this musing in the Culture and Community thread?

Will it be okay then if I launch a thread explaining why the mediterranean cult emanations he speaks of isn't actually native to Ireland?

The urine is being extracted now in no uncertain measure with these blatantly proselytising threads for a particular religious sect on this forum. And if I am right the mods are not only waving it through either through ignorance or deliberate technique but actually indulging in it themselves.

These threads are launched specifically to allow proselytizing for a particular sect.
 

Dublin 4

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
12,993
Cor - when you have "hope" I get worries :p
 

LamportsEdge

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
21,894
Actually I would just confirm that I have reported the OP for misusing the forum/forum section in a deliberate attempt at inappropriate sect based propaganda.
 

Hewson

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
8,338
Oh dear me. What a thread!

As an Atheist, I think very deeply indeed that all the successors to St Peter (Simon the Jew) hold back the intellectual development of Billions of people throughout the world.
In your unbiased opinion.

The arts, music, universities and other places of learning, hospitals and NGOs have all benefited from Church patronage over the centuries.

As an atheist, or just as a plain old human being, maybe you don't think deeply enough.
 

Hewson

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
8,338
Actually I would just confirm that I have reported the OP for misusing the forum/forum section in a deliberate attempt at inappropriate sect based propaganda.
FFS, go back to bed and stop behaving like an old fish wife.
 

DaveM

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
16,033
The arts, music, universities and other places of learning, hospitals and NGOs have all benefited from Church patronage over the centuries.
That's a bit of a bland platitude given that all context is omitted. Their patronage often stemmed from a position of complete dominance and was one of the more benign tools used in maintaining that dominance.

At various times have all also impeded, suppressed and vociforously opposed people and developments in the very same areas. You never hear them boast about censorship for example though, do you?
 

ger12

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,255
Right, just speaking for myself, this is how I view matters generally.

I am a putative christian, in that I believe in the christian ideal, that you help the less well off/those who are persecuted and/or discriminated against, without question. I accept everyone as my brothe/sister, without exception. I fully realise that the RC Church have a way to come in that regard, so I am keeping my distance, pro-tem.

I also am a student of history, recent, and particularly, of the Holy See/Vatican.

If you have a slight knowledge of recent Papal history you will realise that, to recent date, "Francis" is more of a "Johannes"/"John XXIII"/John Paul I, then a John Paul II or a Benedict XVI. That is a good thing.

Some simple examples.

John XXIII replaced the austere and, very, magesterial, Pius XII. He was fat, short and pretty down to earth. He called Vatican II. John, that is .

Francis has replaced the very magesterial and austere Benedict. With the greatest will in the world, he, Benedict, was incapable of communicating outside of very select thelogical circles. He was also, lets not pretend, very fond of dressing up in all the liturgical finery. A lot of the pontifical dress that was popular/worn pre Vatican II saw a return. Be it the ermine/fur trimmed Mozetta, (the purple short cape worn over the white "cassock" and lace "rochet" which, in his wildest days, John Paul II would never have worn, or the, equally, fur trimmed, cap, known as the "camuro", both of which Benedict re-introduced. Of course, best known, is the "shoes of the fisherman" or the traditional red shoes which Benedict re-introduced with a bang. John Paul II, in fairness, wore pretty bog standard brown slip-ons.

What have we with Francis?

Bog standard black shoes and socks, aparently given to him before leaving Argentina for Conclave, as his own pair were pretty past use.

No rochet or mozetta on the balcony of St. Peters upon election. He even refused to intone the latin benediction. That, for any student of these things, is a huge slap in the face for the old fashioned "tridentine" groupings that Benedict had sought to support and re-introduce into the mainstream. Take it as read that the "old latin mass", and its supporters, with all its associated dressing up, is dead in this pontificate. The use of Latin is also dead. Benedict gave his important sermons in the old language. Francis uses the vernacular and seems ill disposed to Latin, given, lets be honest, no bugger outside the Vatican uses it anymore.

John Paul I was the first to refuse the "Coronation" withe the "tripple crown", or Tiregnum, and also the first to walk on his own two feet, forgoing, but not always, the old papal chair, which was carried aloft by the "gentleman of his Holiness". Francis seems insistant on meeting and greeting people there to meet him. No secutiry considerations bother him, much to the annoyance of his security team, according to the Italian press. Of course, bitched to by the Curia who know he is going to, shortly, give them a royal shafting.

I will add to this tomorrow, but it's way late!!
And women coreilli, will he treat half the World's population as an equal? Will we see women priests?
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,201
The new Pope is a disaster, with his frugality, and simplicity.

Millions of Dollars, Euros, etc.. are spent everyday in the media inducing people to consume more stuff, and yer man presents himself as somebody who completely quietly disagrees. We simply cannot have this. This is a disaster. Now, move along folks, nothing to see here.
 
Last edited:

Ribeye

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,306
Right, just speaking for myself, this is how I view matters generally.

I am a putative christian, in that I believe in the christian ideal, that you help the less well off/those who are persecuted and/or discriminated against, without question. I accept everyone as my brothe/sister, without exception. I fully realise that the RC Church have a way to come in that regard, so I am keeping my distance, pro-tem.

I also am a student of history, recent, and particularly, of the Holy See/Vatican.

If you have a slight knowledge of recent Papal history you will realise that, to recent date, "Francis" is more of a "Johannes"/"John XXIII"/John Paul I, then a John Paul II or a Benedict XVI. That is a good thing.

Some simple examples.

John XXIII replaced the austere and, very, magesterial, Pius XII. He was fat, short and pretty down to earth. He called Vatican II. John, that is .

Francis has replaced the very magesterial and austere Benedict. With the greatest will in the world, he, Benedict, was incapable of communicating outside of very select thelogical circles. He was also, lets not pretend, very fond of dressing up in all the liturgical finery. A lot of the pontifical dress that was popular/worn pre Vatican II saw a return. Be it the ermine/fur trimmed Mozetta, (the purple short cape worn over the white "cassock" and lace "rochet" which, in his wildest days, John Paul II would never have worn, or the, equally, fur trimmed, cap, known as the "camuro", both of which Benedict re-introduced. Of course, best known, is the "shoes of the fisherman" or the traditional red shoes which Benedict re-introduced with a bang. John Paul II, in fairness, wore pretty bog standard brown slip-ons.

What have we with Francis?

Bog standard black shoes and socks, aparently given to him before leaving Argentina for Conclave, as his own pair were pretty past use.

No rochet or mozetta on the balcony of St. Peters upon election. He even refused to intone the latin benediction. That, for any student of these things, is a huge slap in the face for the old fashioned "tridentine" groupings that Benedict had sought to support and re-introduce into the mainstream. Take it as read that the "old latin mass", and its supporters, with all its associated dressing up, is dead in this pontificate. The use of Latin is also dead. Benedict gave his important sermons in the old language. Francis uses the vernacular and seems ill disposed to Latin, given, lets be honest, no bugger outside the Vatican uses it anymore.

John Paul I was the first to refuse the "Coronation" withe the "tripple crown", or Tiregnum, and also the first to walk on his own two feet, forgoing, but not always, the old papal chair, which was carried aloft by the "gentleman of his Holiness". Francis seems insistant on meeting and greeting people there to meet him. No secutiry considerations bother him, much to the annoyance of his security team, according to the Italian press. Of course, bitched to by the Curia who know he is going to, shortly, give them a royal shafting.

I will add to this tomorrow, but it's way late!!
"I'm an Athiest"

Really?

Coz ye don't look like one,
 

Tawdy

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,532
In the advertising world when you repackage an old brand as new, you come from a different angle, change the packaging, colour. Put a new spin on it like " Old Wine In New Bottles " It will sell/catch on............for a while.

It is still a haven for sick individuals masqerading as a religous society, just like any religion really.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
224,093
Oh dear me. What a thread!

As an Atheist, I think very deeply indeed that all the successors to St Peter (Simon the Jew) hold back the intellectual development of Billions of people throughout the world.

As an agnostic slash atheist, I think that's debatable. After living for a few years (although not as long as yourself) it is becoming apparent to me that human nature is saturated with stupidity as well as rare genius. And that the stupids (who holds onto a much smaller dogma e.g look after the privilege of number 1 at any cost) are overwhelming in number and therefore dominate. Therefore the best we can hope for is that one religion fills a vacuum that a worse religion (e.g intolerant sharia law etc) might fill instead. And it also seems that the vacuum also accepts any ideology (e.g political etc) which exploits this stupidity and inability to think. It's the inability to think fearlessly and act unselfishly that holds humanity back. To a large extent some parts of society use religion as much as religion has used us. Religion was historically imposed by aristocrats to reinforce their own authority. If humanity can evolve past a certain point then religion will become irrelevant.

Corelli's point about clothes might be relevant to someone existing in a purely intellectual sphere. If all this guy does is change his shoes and clothes then this Pope is no different from someone like Princess Diana, giving the media something to fill their pages with.

We all know what the big issues are and it is not whether the Pope wears lacey underwear. It is issues such as contraception, divorce and marriage of priests. If you can't divorce someone even (to use real life examples) if they murdered your children and attempted murder on you leaving you crippled for life, while someone like a Prince of Monaco gets an annulment because he moves in the right circles then the church is pretty rotten at the core.
 

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
26,196
While I wish the Holy Father all the best in his Mission

- it must be said that he has a huge task ahead of him

- that involves taking decisions that are momentous in their implications

Style over substance is and will not be enough....
 
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