Why I am voting Remain

Malcolm Redfellow

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First, obviously, this is far, far bigger than me. But I have to start from a subjective base.

Since the shlock-horror issue is "immigration", I have to recognise I am a twice migrant:
  • Because there were Irish connections, aged thirteen, I came to Dublin, from an East Anglian childhood, for a secondary-school and TCD education. During which I learned a lot, including West Cork and Galway and all kinds of wonders
  • That done, I found myself branded a "West Brit", as a "Prod", so little hope of employment in the country and city I had come to love. So I had to re-migrate.
It was rather painful to be rejected sequentially by two lovely girls; first because I was "English", second because I was "Irish". Fortunately the Ulster miss saw she could make something of me.

Consequently, I have been at sea all my adult life, looking from the night ferry for the flashes of light from Donaghadee, the Kish, and Perch Rock.

I now have grandchildren with roots: Anglian (note the precision), Irish, Scottish, French Huguenot, Balt-Jewish, and who-knows-what. Even — heaven help them — Lancastrian.

A "liberal" education (now, there's a slippery adjective) meant I had some knowledge of English, French, Latin, Greek, and Irish literature, and culture. And some history. But, above all, an insistence on reasoned debate.

So: here am I, next Thursday being just one of the — what? I guess — thirty-odd million electors eligible to cast a vote.

What are my considerations?

As I said: this is far, far bigger than me. And the issues are far, far bigger than Little England. Since (I expect) Scotland and Northern Ireland and (possibly) Wales, together with the big English cities to vote "Remain", this implies a potential — perhaps overdue — "balkanisation" of the "United Kingdom".

What are the problems we, irrespective of our sense of "national" belonging, face? Here's a starter for five:
  • Global capitalism and the world-wide smothering embrace of the multi-national corporation. In my younger days we prated about "coca-colonisation": if only we had known where that was heading. If there is one area where controls should be regularised and enforced across the EU28, it is where and how corporations should be taxed. Not going to be controlled on a local economy basis.
  • Employees' rights. Hold it right there: the trade union is no longer your shield-and-buckler. In the workplace, "health and safety" should be more than a phrase. United Carbide at Bhopal killed (officially) some 2,259: unofficially the toll was 8,000. Fancy, then, the race to the bottom of working conditions? The EU has provisions for employment, provisions which unscrupulous employers would happily circumvent.
  • Climate change. Surely it now needs a fruit-cake to deny that something serious is developing. Another not-a-local problem. And it extends to how we use the environment which includes fish-stocks, effluents (not excluding nuclear waste from Sellafield arriving in your Dublin Bay prawns).
  • Public health. What are the present risks? SARs? Zika? Dengue fever? West Nile virus? Resistant TB? Mutations of common flu? A different strain of polio? All we know is another one will come along shortly. Meanwhile our existing antibiotics and what-not are proving less effective. Can such problems be contained as a local problem?
  • Immigration. Why, yes. Where I started, and where the #Brexiters cannot let go. It's a matter of massive movements of population, even greater than those set in motion by the Götterdämmerung of 1945. Two forces are at work: the push-factor of the crises across North Africa and the Middle East, and the pull-factor of economic migration. Nothing here is going to be solved, in any long term, by building Donald Trump's 'ooge walls. On the contrary, we have to extend the benefits of a productive, consumer society to the Third World. And stop bombing them.
 
Last edited:


Gin Soaked

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Good on you.

Voting to leave would be lunacy. Financially and emotionally akin to getting divorced .

And the EU is not that much at the heart of Britain's malaise
 

SilverSpurs

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Nov 27, 2009
Messages
5,525
First, obviously, this is far, far bigger than me. But I have to start from a subjective base.

Since the shlock-horror issue is "immigration", I have to recognise I am a twice migrant:
  • Because there were Irish connections, aged thirteen, I came to Dublin, from an East Anglian childhood, for a secondary-school and TCD education. During which I learned a lot, including West Cork and Galway and all kinds of wonders
  • That done, I found myself branded a "West Brit", as a "Prod", so little hope of employment in the country and city I had come to love. So I had to re-migrate.
It was rather painful to be rejected sequentially by two lovely girls; first because I was "English", second because I was "Irish". Fortunately the Ulster miss saw she could make something of me.

Consequently, I have been at sea all my adult life, looking from the night ferry for the flashes of light from Donaghadee, the Kish, and Perch Rock.

I now have grandchildren with roots: Anglian (note the precision), Irish, Scottish, French Huguenot, Balt-Jewish, and who-knows-what. Even — heaven help them — Lancastrian.

A "liberal" education (now, there's a slippery adjective) meant I had some knowledge of English, French, Latin, Greek, and Irish literature, and culture. And some history. But, above all, an insistence on reasoned debate.

So: here am I, next Thursday being just one of the — what? I guess — thirty-odd million electors eligible to cast a vote.

What are my considerations?

As I said: this is far, far bigger than me. And the issues are far, far bigger than Little England. Since (I expect) Scotland and Northern Ireland and (possibly) Wales, together with the big English cities to vote "Remain", this implies a potential — perhaps overdue — "balkanisation" of the "United Kingdom".

What are the problems we, irrespective of our sense of "national" belonging, face? Here's a starter for five:
  • Global capitalism and the world-wide smothering embrace of the multi-national corporation. In my younger days we prated about "coca-colonisation": if only we had known where that was heading. If there is one area where controls should be regularised and enforced across the EU28, it is where and how corporations should be taxed. Not going to be controlled on a local economy basis.
  • Employees' rights. Hold it right there: the trade union is no longer your shield-and-buckler. In the workplace, "health and safety" should be more than a phrase. United Carbide at Bhopal killed (officially) some 2,259: unofficially the toll was 8,000. Fancy, then, the race to the bottom of working conditions? The EU has provisions for employment, provisions which unscrupulous employers would happily circumvent.
  • Climate change. Surely it now needs a fruit-cake to deny that something serious is developing. Another not-a-local problem. And it extends to how we use the environment which includes fish-stocks, effluents (not excluding nuclear waste from Sellafield arriving in your Dublin Bay prawns).
  • Public health. What are the present risks? SARs? Zika? Dengue fever? West Nile virus? Resistant TB? Mutations of common flu? A different strain of polio? All we know is another one will come along shortly. Meanwhile our existing antibiotics and what-not are proving less effective. Can such problems be contained as a local problem?
  • Immigration. Why, yes. Where I started, and where the #Brexiters cannot let go. It's a matter of massive movements of population, even greater than those set in motion by the Götterdämmerung of 1945. Two forces are at work: the push-factor of the crises across North Africa and the Middle East, and the pull-factor of economic migration. Nothing here is going to be solved, in any long term, by building Donald Trump's 'ooge walls. On the contrary, we have to extend the benefits of a productive, consumer society to the Third World. And stop bombing them.
Both your main arguments are bogus as the Ireland Act 1949 exempts Irish citizens in the UK from migration control and similar legislation here exempts UK citizens from migration control.
Your list of points merely calls for international co-operation it is not an argument for the membership of the current EU.
 

GDPR

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I'll be voting "Remain" too, for not exactly the same reasons you are, Malcolm.

I think that globalisation is still developing, and is inevitable. We are in the early stages of the merging of all peoples. The times certainly are a'changing, and has been for the past few centuries. We all have to accept this; after all, the Irish (for various reasons) have been at the forefront of the mass migration from Europe to the rest of the world.

Migration within the EU has benefited and enriched both Brits and other Europeans.

Remaining part of the EU is a local "globalisation" and imho has been mostly good. Despite what some p.iesters (for example Dr Pat) have said, belonging to the EU has really helped Ireland. And the UK and the other EU nations.

At the moment the City of London is the financial centre of the EU, and the British economy relies on it for most of its income (truly). Should GB leave, it is likely that London will become a financial backwater as the big merchant banks move their HQs to the continent, never to return. The effect on the British economy would be disastrous and permanent.

The Brexit people have been blatantly lying and exaggerating about so many crucial things, so much so that I disbelieve any real benefits (if there are any) for leaving. I do think that Cameron and other "Remain" politicians have done an appalling campaign, not explaining much and screaming dire threats. I had to buy a couple of books which confirmed to me that voting "Remain" is the right thing.

Brexit will cause so much upheaval economically and socially in the short and long term, but to what tangible benefit?

I do have other things to say, but at this point, I cannot be bothered letting p.ie know about them! I am sure other p.iesters have already said more than enough and more eloquently too.
 
O

Oscurito

General question to any British people here: is this becoming very divisive?

I see that a few UK friends on Facebook have closed their accounts in the last couple of weeks. Others have become very vocal for one side or another.
 

Polly Ticks

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Well said, OP. I liked your final paragraph most.

Good luck to you.
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Both your main arguments are bogus as the Ireland Act 1949 exempts Irish citizens in the UK from migration control and similar legislation here exempts UK citizens from migration control.
Your list of points merely calls for international co-operation it is not an argument for the membership of the current EU.
I'd prefer my arguments to be "illogical" or plain "wrong", with proof to the contrary. "Bogus" implies something with sinister ulterior motives. I assure you I am quite sincere.

I'm fully aware of the Ireland Acts and Government of Ireland Acts. They are (and, sadly, have been) amended at the drop of an imminent declaration of war. No doubt, a lesser event might cause a similar crucial change.

I do not know if SilverSpurs has made the cross-Irish Sea journey of late. Since the late 1970s, it's no longer document-free. Were #Brexit to happen, it wouldn't be identity checks at Goraghwood: it'd be full control at Holyhead, Stranraer as well as airports.

Yes: beyond that, I'm an internationalist (just don't push me on immigration at EWR). But the EU is a good start. And we haven't had a Europe wide war in 70 years (says he, with a grandfather planted behind the Somme). Good enough, don't you think?
 

Bleu Poppy

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Apr 1, 2010
Messages
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I think you're voting for good reasons.
There are always the very best reasons for voting- Democracy is a precious right and all its privileges must be availed of whenever they become available.

The way that he proposes to exercise his democratic right and privilege is what is praiseworthy.
 

GDPR

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Messages
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The only good thing about this referendum campaign, should "Remain" win, is that it may permanently prevent Boris Johnson from becoming PM.
 

edifice.

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Feb 24, 2005
Messages
8,325
First, obviously, this is far, far bigger than me. But I have to start from a subjective base.

Since the shlock-horror issue is "immigration", I have to recognise I am a twice migrant:
  • Because there were Irish connections, aged thirteen, I came to Dublin, from an East Anglian childhood, for a secondary-school and TCD education. During which I learned a lot, including West Cork and Galway and all kinds of wonders
  • That done, I found myself branded a "West Brit", as a "Prod", so little hope of employment in the country and city I had come to love. So I had to re-migrate.
It was rather painful to be rejected sequentially by two lovely girls; first because I was "English", second because I was "Irish". Fortunately the Ulster miss saw she could make something of me.

Consequently, I have been at sea all my adult life, looking from the night ferry for the flashes of light from Donaghadee, the Kish, and Perch Rock.

I now have grandchildren with roots: Anglian (note the precision), Irish, Scottish, French Huguenot, Balt-Jewish, and who-knows-what. Even — heaven help them — Lancastrian.

A "liberal" education (now, there's a slippery adjective) meant I had some knowledge of English, French, Latin, Greek, and Irish literature, and culture. And some history. But, above all, an insistence on reasoned debate.

So: here am I, next Thursday being just one of the — what? I guess — thirty-odd million electors eligible to cast a vote.

What are my considerations?

As I said: this is far, far bigger than me. And the issues are far, far bigger than Little England. Since (I expect) Scotland and Northern Ireland and (possibly) Wales, together with the big English cities to vote "Remain", this implies a potential — perhaps overdue — "balkanisation" of the "United Kingdom".

What are the problems we, irrespective of our sense of "national" belonging, face? Here's a starter for five:
  • Global capitalism and the world-wide smothering embrace of the multi-national corporation. In my younger days we prated about "coca-colonisation": if only we had known where that was heading. If there is one area where controls should be regularised and enforced across the EU28, it is where and how corporations should be taxed. Not going to be controlled on a local economy basis.
  • Employees' rights. Hold it right there: the trade union is no longer your shield-and-buckler. In the workplace, "health and safety" should be more than a phrase. United Carbide at Bhopal killed (officially) some 2,259: unofficially the toll was 8,000. Fancy, then, the race to the bottom of working conditions? The EU has provisions for employment, provisions which unscrupulous employers would happily circumvent.
  • Climate change. Surely it now needs a fruit-cake to deny that something serious is developing. Another not-a-local problem. And it extends to how we use the environment which includes fish-stocks, effluents (not excluding nuclear waste from Sellafield arriving in your Dublin Bay prawns).
  • Public health. What are the present risks? SARs? Zika? Dengue fever? West Nile virus? Resistant TB? Mutations of common flu? A different strain of polio? All we know is another one will come along shortly. Meanwhile our existing antibiotics and what-not are proving less effective. Can such problems be contained as a local problem?
  • Immigration. Why, yes. Where I started, and where the #Brexiters cannot let go. It's a matter of massive movements of population, even greater than those set in motion by the Götterdämmerung of 1945. Two forces are at work: the push-factor of the crises across North Africa and the Middle East, and the pull-factor of economic migration. Nothing here is going to be solved, in any long term, by building Donald Trump's 'ooge walls. On the contrary, we have to extend the benefits of a productive, consumer society to the Third World. And stop bombing them.
What was your stance on Scottish Independence?
 
D

Deleted member 45466

I'll be voting "Remain" too, for not exactly the same reasons you are, Malcolm.

I think that globalisation is still developing, and is inevitable. We are in the early stages of the merging of all peoples. The times certainly are a'changing, and has been for the past few centuries. We all have to accept this; after all, the Irish (for various reasons) have been at the forefront of the mass migration from Europe to the rest of the world.

Migration within the EU has benefited and enriched both Brits and other Europeans.

Remaining part of the EU is a local "globalisation" and imho has been mostly good. Despite what some p.iesters (for example Dr Pat) have said, belonging to the EU has really helped Ireland. And the UK and the other EU nations.

At the moment the City of London is the financial centre of the EU, and the British economy relies on it for most of its income (truly). Should GB leave, it is likely that London will become a financial backwater as the big merchant banks move their HQs to the continent, never to return. The effect on the British economy would be disastrous and permanent.

The Brexit people have been blatantly lying and exaggerating about so many crucial things, so much so that I disbelieve any real benefits (if there are any) for leaving. I do think that Cameron and other "Remain" politicians have done an appalling campaign, not explaining much and screaming dire threats. I had to buy a couple of books which confirmed to me that voting "Remain" is the right thing.

Brexit will cause so much upheaval economically and socially in the short and long term, but to what tangible benefit?

I do have other things to say, but at this point, I cannot be bothered letting p.ie know about them! I am sure other p.iesters have already said more than enough and more eloquently too.
Scaremongering IMO. London has been a major financial centre for well over 100 years, and it will continue to remain a financial centre whether brexit is accepted or rejected.
 

subic

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As I said: this is far, far bigger than me. And the issues are far, far bigger than Little England. Since (I expect) Scotland and Northern Ireland and (possibly) Wales, together with the big English cities to vote "Remain", this implies a potential — perhaps overdue — "balkanisation" of the "United Kingdom".
What are you saying here?
 

GDPR

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Messages
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Scaremongering IMO. London has been a major financial centre for well over 100 years, and it will continue to remain a financial centre whether brexit is accepted or rejected.
Yes, it has, starting as centre of the British Empire which no longer exists. Times have changed, the City is the EU's financial hub, so long as it remains in the EU.
 

drummed

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Messages
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Scaremongering IMO. London has been a major financial centre for well over 100 years, and it will continue to remain a financial centre whether brexit is accepted or rejected.

Indeed. We need to feed the banksters and protect them a transaction tax which the evil EU may impose. We can only hope deregulation follows swiftly so that links to the Caymans are kept open. London will i'm sure remain a major centre for international finance pirates and this will be entirely to the benefit of the working class. The banksters promise they will totally behave in a deregulated environment as favoured by the Tories.

What could possibly go wrong?
 
D

Deleted member 45466

First, obviously, this is far, far bigger than me. But I have to start from a subjective base.

Since the shlock-horror issue is "immigration", I have to recognise I am a twice migrant:
  • Because there were Irish connections, aged thirteen, I came to Dublin, from an East Anglian childhood, for a secondary-school and TCD education. During which I learned a lot, including West Cork and Galway and all kinds of wonders
  • That done, I found myself branded a "West Brit", as a "Prod", so little hope of employment in the country and city I had come to love. So I had to re-migrate.
It was rather painful to be rejected sequentially by two lovely girls; first because I was "English", second because I was "Irish". Fortunately the Ulster miss saw she could make something of me.

Consequently, I have been at sea all my adult life, looking from the night ferry for the flashes of light from Donaghadee, the Kish, and Perch Rock.

I now have grandchildren with roots: Anglian (note the precision), Irish, Scottish, French Huguenot, Balt-Jewish, and who-knows-what. Even — heaven help them — Lancastrian.

A "liberal" education (now, there's a slippery adjective) meant I had some knowledge of English, French, Latin, Greek, and Irish literature, and culture. And some history. But, above all, an insistence on reasoned debate.

So: here am I, next Thursday being just one of the — what? I guess — thirty-odd million electors eligible to cast a vote.

What are my considerations?

As I said: this is far, far bigger than me. And the issues are far, far bigger than Little England. Since (I expect) Scotland and Northern Ireland and (possibly) Wales, together with the big English cities to vote "Remain", this implies a potential — perhaps overdue — "balkanisation" of the "United Kingdom".

What are the problems we, irrespective of our sense of "national" belonging, face? Here's a starter for five:
  • Global capitalism and the world-wide smothering embrace of the multi-national corporation. In my younger days we prated about "coca-colonisation": if only we had known where that was heading. If there is one area where controls should be regularised and enforced across the EU28, it is where and how corporations should be taxed. Not going to be controlled on a local economy basis.
  • Employees' rights. Hold it right there: the trade union is no longer your shield-and-buckler. In the workplace, "health and safety" should be more than a phrase. United Carbide at Bhopal killed (officially) some 2,259: unofficially the toll was 8,000. Fancy, then, the race to the bottom of working conditions? The EU has provisions for employment, provisions which unscrupulous employers would happily circumvent.
  • Climate change. Surely it now needs a fruit-cake to deny that something serious is developing. Another not-a-local problem. And it extends to how we use the environment which includes fish-stocks, effluents (not excluding nuclear waste from Sellafield arriving in your Dublin Bay prawns).
  • Public health. What are the present risks? SARs? Zika? Dengue fever? West Nile virus? Resistant TB? Mutations of common flu? A different strain of polio? All we know is another one will come along shortly. Meanwhile our existing antibiotics and what-not are proving less effective. Can such problems be contained as a local problem?
  • Immigration. Why, yes. Where I started, and where the #Brexiters cannot let go. It's a matter of massive movements of population, even greater than those set in motion by the Götterdämmerung of 1945. Two forces are at work: the push-factor of the crises across North Africa and the Middle East, and the pull-factor of economic migration. Nothing here is going to be solved, in any long term, by building Donald Trump's 'ooge walls. On the contrary, we have to extend the benefits of a productive, consumer society to the Third World. And stop bombing them.
Consumer societies consume. First world countries consume most of the world's available resources (energy and food). Third world countries feed us.

Ergo, the "benefits" cannot be extended. What will happen is that new model consumers (from the Third World primarily) will replace the present herd of fattened cattle. The brain washing campaign in Africa started 40 years ago, with intensive marketing of western junk products and brand loyalty. It should be a fairly straightforward matter of "bedding" the new consumerist drones into Western European "culture".

Climate change, Zika virus, Bubonic plague, herpes, climate change, so what? The climate is going to change regardless of Brexit. Viruses aren't going to stop mutating because of Brexit. What are you trying to say? By working together an EU (or global) community can rid the planet of viruses and changes in the climate? Firstly getting rid of viruses would kill the planet. They're here to stay. Secondly, most of the anthropogenic gases that are allegedly causing climate change are an indirect result of the wants and desires of the consumerist west. Sure the production takes place in Indonesia/Africa, but they're catering for western markets.
 
D

Deleted member 45466

Yes, it has, starting as centre of the British Empire which no longer exists. Times have changed, the City is the EU's financial hub, so long as it remains in the EU.
Sorry, but times have not changed. Banking practices are pretty much the same as they were when yer man opened the Bank of England back in 1691. The only thing that has changed is the speed of information.

Why didn't the British adopt the Euro?

The only factor that might effect the value of sterling are trade barriers. I'm not sure that would bother the Brits too much as they have a shyte load of land in Africa.
 

subic

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Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
1,840
Consumer societies consume. First world countries consume most of the world's available resources (energy and food). Third world countries feed us.

Ergo, the "benefits" cannot be extended. What will happen is that new model consumers (from the Third World primarily) will replace the present herd of fattened cattle. The brain washing campaign in Africa started 40 years ago, with intensive marketing of western junk products and brand loyalty. It should be a fairly straightforward matter of "bedding" the new consumerist drones into Western European "culture".

Climate change, Zika virus, Bubonic plague, herpes, climate change, so what? The climate is going to change regardless of Brexit. Viruses aren't going to stop mutating because of Brexit. What are you trying to say? By working together an EU (or global) community can rid the planet of viruses and changes in the climate? Firstly getting rid of viruses would kill the planet. They're here to stay. Secondly, most of the anthropogenic gases that are allegedly causing climate change are an indirect result of the wants and desires of the consumerist west. Sure the production takes place in Indonesia/Africa, but they're catering for western markets.
Vote NO to pestilence... and disease... and climate change... and WWIII!!
 

drummed

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Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
36,191
Sorry, but times have not changed. Banking practices are pretty much the same as they were when yer man opened the Bank of England back in 1691. The only thing that has changed is the speed of information.

Why didn't the British adopt the Euro?

The only factor that might effect the value of sterling are trade barriers. I'm not sure that would bother the Brits too much as they have a shyte load of land in Africa.
Land in Africa? What land? WTF are you on about?


Should land in Africa not be the hands of the Africans?
 


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