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Why is religious instruction being allowed to take away from teaching of other subjects at primary level?


davidcameron

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Why is religious instruction being allowed to take away from teaching of other subjects at primary level?

Preparing pupils for sacraments eating into class time - Independent.ie
Teachers are supposed to devote just half-an-hour a day, or a total of two-and-a-half hours a week, to religion.

However, a survey of 363 primary teachers by the Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO) has found that most are exceeding this allocation.
I cannot for the life of me understand why it should take more than two-and-a-half hours a week to teach the sacraments to Catholic children. After all, it is in plain English.

Besides, failing to remember a prayer correctly is not as serious as not been able to read, write and do basic maths properly and, therefore, parents and boards of management are unlikely to be hung up about it. Therefore, there is no need for primary teachers to exceed the two-and-a-half-hour limit.

PS: This is not about the issue of whether or not religious instruction should be moved out of school hours, which has already been done to death.
 


Cato

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Hewson

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Strange alright.

Maybe some kids have trouble with their tongues.
 

JDubliner

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It is a terrible waste of class time. Moreover it has to undermine the relationship of trust between teacher and student. It's hard to take them seriously when they try to teach fiction as fact. I remember the risible explanations given web questions were asked when I was a child. If parents want to teach religion to their children let them do it privately. I can't imagine too many patents are happy with the amount of class time wasted on this. Separate church and state.
 

LamportsEdge

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I suspect it has more to do with teachers not being able to object in case they get their 'name taken at HQ' and can forget a head teacher role on some unapproved list at the Bishop's office.

Teacher training at primary level is the last bastion of power of the church in Irish society and I have to say that teachers are right to be afraid of being an 'unapproved' sort of person in the eyes of the church.

So really the catholic school ethos is determined by the bishop's office and head teachers who object to so much time being spent on this stuff at the expense of something practical have to be wary of an organisation with a long reach across their careers.

Which is where the Department of Education comes in- and Mr Quinn would do well to get off his arse on this subject and remove teacher training from what is effectively church control. Soon as that is done it will be safe for teachers and headmasters to re-arrange the curriculum toward something less ridiculous without fear of the telephoned reprisal.
 

stakerwallace

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I suspect it has more to do with teachers not being able to object in case they get their 'name taken at HQ' and can forget a head teacher role on some unapproved list at the Bishop's office.

Teacher training at primary level is the last bastion of power of the church in Irish society and I have to say that teachers are right to be afraid of being an 'unapproved' sort of person in the eyes of the church.

So really the catholic school ethos is determined by the bishop's office and head teachers who object to so much time being spent on this stuff at the expense of something practical have to be wary of an organisation with a long reach across their careers.

Which is where the Department of Education comes in- and Mr Quinn would do well to get off his arse on this subject and remove teacher training from what is effectively church control. Soon as that is done it will be safe for teachers and headmasters to re-arrange the curriculum toward something less ridiculous without fear of the telephoned reprisal.
Training teachers the Catholic way - Education News | Primary, Secondary & Third Level | The Irish Time - Tue, Apr 24, 2012

Nows , now , that won't do at all.
 

Hewson

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Hewson

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I suspect it has more to do with teachers not being able to object in case they get their 'name taken at HQ' and can forget a head teacher role on some unapproved list at the Bishop's office.

Teacher training at primary level is the last bastion of power of the church in Irish society and I have to say that teachers are right to be afraid of being an 'unapproved' sort of person in the eyes of the church.

So really the catholic school ethos is determined by the bishop's office and head teachers who object to so much time being spent on this stuff at the expense of something practical have to be wary of an organisation with a long reach across their careers.

Which is where the Department of Education comes in- and Mr Quinn would do well to get off his arse on this subject and remove teacher training from what is effectively church control. Soon as that is done it will be safe for teachers and headmasters to re-arrange the curriculum toward something less ridiculous without fear of the telephoned reprisal.
What's it like there back in the 50s . . ?
 

Cato

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Dr Pat

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Fr Michael Drumm in the News at One on RTE Radio 1 firmly knocks on the head the misrepresentation of the results of the Survey by the Irish Times. Deirdre O'Connor Equality Officer INTO pointed out that 90% were willing to teach religious subjects.

Its at 5.17 onwards of the attached link.
RT Radio 1: News At One Media Player
 
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LamportsEdge

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You mean 90% are afraid to object in case their applications for jobs at another school in due course or for that headteacher's role keeps getting knocked back for some mysterious unknown reason.

We are perilously close to '84%' of primary school teachers can't wait to get to school in the mornings for the opportunity to teach apocryphal fiction to children':)
 

LamportsEdge

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What's it like there back in the 50s . . ?
A bit like Ireland.

A fairly recent thread here is quite informative:

'The Sunday Businesses Post has an interview with the new president of Mary Immaculate College where he started that he wants to give greater prominence to the Catholic ethos.

However the institution already has a strong Catholic ethos. Rowan Gallagher, who wrote the article, points out that that a report by the Teaching Council critiqued Mary I for spending too much time teaching religion, stating that student teachers spent four times as many class hours on religion than science.

The teacher training institute, which produces 40 percent of our primary teachers, will, according to its new president, "actively promote the mission, identity and values of the college as a Catholic institution of higher education..." because they were "...founded as a Catholic institution.“ He also went on to say that Catholicism "has to have a preferential place in any dialogue" about the future of the college.'
http://www.politics.ie/forum/education-science/181722-biz-post-mary-immaculate-prez-says-college-will-return-catholic-ethos.html

And a question. How many Teacher Training Colleges or institutions does the state have that isn't controlled by the 'catholic ethos' (ie the bishop's office on the other end of the batphone)?
 

Dr Pat

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You mean 90% are afraid to object in case their applications for jobs at another school in due course or for that headteacher's role keeps getting knocked back for some mysterious unknown reason.

We are perilously close to '84%' of primary school teachers can't wait to get to school in the mornings for the opportunity to teach apocryphal fiction to children':)
Another misrepresentation - presumably because you don't like the results of the survey. Are you interested in a job at d'Oirish Times?
 

LamportsEdge

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Another misrepresentation - presumably because you don't like the results of the survey. Are you interested in a job at d'Oirish Times?
No. Father Dave Cochrane SJ has that gig.

If one teacher training college which trains 40% of teachers in the state by itself has announced it is going to, for some weird reason, 'return' to a stronger catholic ethos is that not a bit of a warning to anyone attempting to become a teacher through that College? Of what the atmos is like?

Hardly a dogwhistle towards the ecumenical is it?
 

Dr Pat

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No. Father Dave Cochrane SJ has that gig.

If one teacher training college which trains 40% of teachers in the state by itself has announced it is going to, for some weird reason, 'return' to a stronger catholic ethos is that not a bit of a warning to anyone attempting to become a teacher through that College? Of what the atmos is like?
Stop trying diversionary tactics. We all know you just hate Catholicism.
 

sheehan

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The institutionalised indoctrination of children with religion is harmful to both the individuals and the society at large. This is the incubator for future religious fundamentalists.

Preparing pupils for sacraments eating into class time - Independent.ie


I cannot for the life of me understand why it should take more than two-and-a-half hours a week to teach the sacraments to Catholic children. After all, it is in plain English.

Besides, failing to remember a prayer correctly is not as serious as not been able to read, write and do basic maths properly and, therefore, parents and boards of management are unlikely to be hung up about it. Therefore, there is no need for primary teachers to exceed the two-and-a-half-hour limit.

PS: This is not about the issue of whether or not religious instruction should be moved out of school hours, which has already been done to death.
 

LamportsEdge

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Stop trying diversionary tactics. We all know you just hate Catholicism.
An outrageous slur. It is much wider than that. Oh and on a point of order my small but perfectly formed Irish Mammy is a catholic. Or was, last time I checked, although not overly convinced. She'll be a bit upset to learn that I 'hate' her though. I might break the news after Easter if you don't mind. I like chocolate easter eggs. I'm sure you understand my position on this.
 

davidcameron

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The institutionalised indoctrination of children with religion is harmful to both the individuals and the society at large. This is the incubator for future religious fundamentalists.
The Catholic Church abhors violence.
 

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