Why join the ROI?

Antrim

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The UK’s constitutional monarchy is more akin to true republicanism than the ROI’s republic.

The UK is more socialist than the ROI.

Given that nationalists are socialist and republicans the question would be…

Why leave the UK? You want to leave a country that is closer to your ideals than the one you want to join.

Now, I don’t want this descending into a troll thread so this is not about what one side has done to the other over the years. This is about the two modern states of the UK and the ROI and how they are in 2010.

What are the pros for NI leaving the union and joining the ROI?
 


SlabMurphy

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The UK’s constitutional monarchy is more akin to true republicanism than the ROI’s republic.

The UK is more socialist than the ROI.

Given that nationalists are socialist and republicans the question would be…

Why leave the UK? You want to leave a country that is closer to your ideals than the one you want to join.

Now, I don’t want this descending into a troll thread so this is not about what one side has done to the other over the years. This is about the two modern states of the UK and the ROI and how they are in 2010.

What are the pros for NI leaving the union and joining the ROI?
5th in the UN Development Index while that place with 4.8 trillion around it's neck is 26th. The Brits had the IMF running their country for three years, we're not the first or the last country to have them in and it will finally make the sheep down here wise up to the con men who ran it. Besides it will take a decade or two before the nationalist population overtakes the unionists, we can wait :)
 

SlabMurphy

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Some people have it as an aspiration.
So how are you going to stop the ever increaseing nationalist population while the older unionist one dies off ?
 

Scipio

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It's a question of identity, quite simply. A similar variable applies as regards Québec, Catalonia, the (Spanish) Basque Country, Flanders and many other such areas around the world.
 

SevenStars

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The UK’s constitutional monarchy is more akin to true republicanism than the ROI’s republic.

The UK is more socialist than the ROI.
Is the UK with its established Churches (though I dont think Wales has an established Church?), its aristocracy, House of Lords and in real terms given its vast wealth pretty powerful Royal family actually more Republican than the Free State/ROI which has none of those things?

Also is the UK really more socialist? After all despite the post WWII reforms and Thatcher (who allowed some people to rise above their station even as she condemned others to despair) England has a pretty rigid class structure.

Re-unification being posed in terms of Dublin taking over the north is a very recent thing in Irish Republicanism...Infact PSF's doing so is an admitance of defeat.
 

Antrim

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So how are you going to stop the ever increaseing nationalist population while the older unionist one dies off ?
The populations on both side are pretty stable. If Ireland were to be united because of shear numbers it would be disastrous for the country. Unification has to take place by consensus of all the people. You need to convince the Unionist population that this would be a good thing. Hence the question.

5th in the UN Development Index while that place with 4.8 trillion around it's neck is 26th. The Brits had the IMF running their country for three years, we're not the first or the last country to have them in and it will finally make the sheep down here wise up to the con men who ran it. Besides it will take a decade or two before the nationalist population overtakes the unionists, we can wait :)
1 seems to be the highest score you can reach. Norway in first place scored 0.938. ROI scored 0.895 and the UK scored 0.849. Not much difference.

It's a question of identity, quite simply. A similar variable applies as regards Québec, Catalonia, the (Spanish) Basque Country, Flanders and many other such areas around the world.
There is no loss of identity within the UK. The Welsh are still Welsh. Are they any less Welsh for being in the Union? Would they be more Welsh if they left.
 

SevenStars

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The populations on both side are pretty stable. If Ireland were to be united because of shear numbers it would be disastrous for the country. Unification has to take place by consensus of all the people. You need to convince the Unionist population that this would be a good thing. Hence the question.
.
But Unionism will see that in any way, shape or form as a defeat. Unionists have said here a good few times that the "gloating" accompanying any type of re-unification would be too much for them or at least a very serious reason to oppose it. Unionism is all about being the "winner" and because of that "persuasion" wont work....Also there is the geo-political interests of the UK state.
 

Antrim

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Is the UK with its established Churches (though I dont think Wales has an established Church?), its aristocracy, House of Lords and in real terms given its vast wealth pretty powerful Royal family actually more Republican than the Free State/ROI which has none of those things?

Also is the UK really more socialist? After all despite the post WWII reforms and Thatcher (who allowed some people to rise above their station even as she condemned others to despair) England has a pretty rigid class structure.

Re-unification being posed in terms of Dublin taking over the north is a very recent thing in Irish Republicanism...Infact PSF's doing so is an admitance of defeat.

The Republican ideals of civic virtue, liberty, freedom and education free from religion are all more pronounced in the UK than in ROI. Obviously the Queen isn’t elected but she only holds a ceremonial roll. The actual ideology of republicanism is more practised in the UK.

I was thinking mainly of Socialism by state ownership and the big piece in the UK’s crown is the NHS.
 

SevenStars

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There is no loss of identity within the UK. The Welsh are still Welsh. Are they any less Welsh for being in the Union? Would they be more Welsh if they left.
Look at how the UK state destoried the Mining industry in Wales for political reasons. Money coming out of Scotland to England is still less than money going into Scotland for England (Im not sure what the case is with Wales...Cai will hopefully comment on this).

However the fact that Scotland and Wales vote in a very different way to England should alert you to the fact that all is not well with the "Union".
 

Antrim

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But Unionism will see that in any way, shape or form as a defeat. Unionists have said here a good few times that the "gloating" accompanying any type of re-unification would be too much for them or at least a very serious reason to oppose it. Unionism is all about being the "winner" and because of that "persuasion" wont work....Also there is the geo-political interests of the UK state.
The more the two states move together the less offence there will be to any “gloating”. A unification with Ireland re-joining the Commonwealth may be a way of reducing this “gloating”. The way I see it is that if Unionist want to join Ireland then there will be no need for gloating because it will be what they wanted.
 

SevenStars

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The Republican ideals of civic virtue, liberty, freedom and education free from religion are all more pronounced in the UK than in ROI. Obviously the Queen isn’t elected but she only holds a ceremonial roll. The actual ideology of republicanism is more practised in the UK.

I was thinking mainly of Socialism by state ownership and the big piece in the UK’s crown is the NHS.
The Royal Family own most of Cornwall which I consider an oppressed nation but thats for another thread. I would also dispute that state ownership equals socialism (for instance Taiwan had a much higher level of state ownership than the People's Republic of China during most of the "Mao era").

What do you see as the differences between liberty and freedom?

The point about the NHS is well taken though.
 

Antrim

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Look at how the UK state destoried the Mining industry in Wales for political reasons. Money coming out of Scotland to England is still less than money going into Scotland for England (Im not sure what the case is with Wales...Cai will hopefully comment on this).

However the fact that Scotland and Wales vote in a very different way to England should alert you to the fact that all is not well with the "Union".
Perhaps there needs to be a move to a more federal state where each region has more control of its natural resources.

The question I am thinking is were those things done for the good of the UK or for the good of England. If it’s the later then that may be one reason for leaving the UK

The fact that they vote in a different way is a good thing. They are voting on local issues which shows they have not lost their own identities.
 

northernstar

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Number one thing essential : Assembly for current devolved matters to cover those areas in Northern Ireland, within a United Ireland. Have heard this suggested, and it works presently withing the UK, why should a UI mean the Assembly has to be disbanded? It doesn't. It is the best carrot to encourage Unionists eventually to a UI, since they aren't going to be 'swallowed up'.
 

SevenStars

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Number one thing essential : Assembly for current devolved matters to cover those areas in Northern Ireland, within a United Ireland. Have heard this suggested, and it works presently withing the UK, why should a UI mean the Assembly has to be disbanded? It doesn't. It is the best carrot to encourage Unionists eventually to a UI, since they aren't going to be 'swallowed up'.
Provisional Sinn Fein used to be in favour of federalism...But they have dropped that.

Personally though I believe that Ulster is culturally distinct enough from the rest of the nation to have a high level of independence.

I would not like to see the six counties swallowed up by Dublin (who its impossible for me to really argue for because it has made such a continual mess...but I see as being due to cultural and political factors as opposed to racial issues like Unionists).
 

SevenStars

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Really? Any links to articles about this?
"The duchy provides the prince's entire annual income—13.2 million pounds (23.5 million dollars) in 2004—which covers most of the cost of his official duties, his charitable activities, and all his private expenses. It is money that comes as rent from roughly 250 tenanted farms and from, among many other sources, transatlantic undersea fiber-optic cables and a gay bar in London. The only real curb on the prince, aside from easily roused British public opinion, is the government's treasury department, charged by law with ensuring that management of the duchy finances safeguards the interests of future Dukes of Cornwall."

Duchy of Cornwall, Not Your Typical Radical - National Geographic Magazine

I will email some Cornish seperatists I know for more info.
 

Antrim

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Number one thing essential : Assembly for current devolved matters to cover those areas in Northern Ireland, within a United Ireland. Have heard this suggested, and it works presently withing the UK, why should a UI mean the Assembly has to be disbanded? It doesn't. It is the best carrot to encourage Unionists eventually to a UI, since they aren't going to be 'swallowed up'.
I agree.

Provisional Sinn Fein used to be in favour of federalism...But they have dropped that.

Personally though I believe that Ulster is culturally distinct enough from the rest of the nation to have a high level of independence.

I would not like to see the six counties swallowed up by Dublin (who its impossible for me to really argue for because it has made such a continual mess...but I see as being due to cultural and political factors as opposed to racial issues like Unionists).

Personally I like the federal model.

If the Island does become united the six counties will have to stay as a devolved administration with possibly Donegal being added.
 

Antrim

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"The duchy provides the prince's entire annual income—13.2 million pounds (23.5 million dollars) in 2004—which covers most of the cost of his official duties, his charitable activities, and all his private expenses. It is money that comes as rent from roughly 250 tenanted farms and from, among many other sources, transatlantic undersea fiber-optic cables and a gay bar in London. The only real curb on the prince, aside from easily roused British public opinion, is the government's treasury department, charged by law with ensuring that management of the duchy finances safeguards the interests of future Dukes of Cornwall."

Duchy of Cornwall, Not Your Typical Radical - National Geographic Magazine

I will email some Cornish seperatists I know for more info.
Very interesting. Stick up any more links if you get them.
 


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