Why no sentence bargaining in Irish law?

cry freedom

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Now and again you hear of a case where three or four people are involved in a robbery or a vicious assault but only one of them is caught.
There does not seem to be any system [officially at least ] in this country whereby the courts or the Gardai can do deals with one accused to get them to implicate other guilty parties.
To my naive brain it would seem to be a very efficient way to use scarce resources.
Why no "squealers charter" in this country?
 


Asparagus

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Now and again you hear of a case where three or four people are involved in a robbery or a vicious assault but only one of them is caught.
There does not seem to be any system [officially at least ] in this country whereby the courts or the Gardai can do deals with one accused to get them to implicate other guilty parties.
To my naive brain it would seem to be a very efficient way to use scarce resources.
Why no "squealers charter" in this country?
cos what would they bargain with - none of our cons do any time...
Maybe they could start giving out demerits and goldstars
 

Odyessus

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Now and again you hear of a case where three or four people are involved in a robbery or a vicious assault but only one of them is caught.
There does not seem to be any system [officially at least ] in this country whereby the courts or the Gardai can do deals with one accused to get them to implicate other guilty parties.
To my naive brain it would seem to be a very efficient way to use scarce resources.
Why no "squealers charter" in this country?

There is a unofficial system. The Gardai give evidence that the convicted person has been "very co-operative and helpful to them". The judge takes this into account in sentencing.
 

selkies

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cos what would they bargain with - none of our cons do any time...
Maybe they could start giving out demerits and goldstars
Yes... because a demerit is the equivalent of a few years in prison.

Do you actually plan on sounding like an alarmist or does it come naturally to you?

There is a unofficial system. The Gardai give evidence that the convicted person has been "very co-operative and helpful to them". The judge takes this into account in sentencing.
Good Contribution
 

cedissapointed

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They do have an unofficial system in place you could say,they will factor your level of co operation into the final sentencing depending on the severity of the crime brought before the courts.

I think our problem though,getting off track here is there are too many of these provisions and futher considerations to bring in more provisions and rights of way for the criminal,where does the dead victim and their family fit into this?
From where im standing prison equals free education to a lot of people ,free food,you have a bank account,and a wage,they have most things that we on the outside as the unemployed DONT HAVE.
A guy was punched in the head outside a pub in ennis he fell to the ground split the back of his head and died,the two brave men serving up pub justice,got a very weak sentence for his death.This happens all over ireland,every week without fail,i have never seen guards about to intervene,patrol or what ever good cops are supposed to do,yet when these scums are brought before a court they get more and more and more provisions.
I would like to ask the threadstarter cryfreedom,how would you like to be living next door to scum like this,and have to put up with that ************************?
Im sick of seeing posts all over the internet asking questions relating to what a criminals rights are,its time we made a DRASTIC SAVING AND SHOT THESE SCUMBAGS TO DEATH AND SAVE A FEW BILLION,ON THIER EXPENSE ON THE PUBLIC THE VICTIM AGAIN!
 

Adonis

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They do have an unofficial system in place you could say,they will factor your level of co operation into the final sentencing depending on the severity of the crime brought before the courts.

I think our problem though,getting off track here is there are too many of these provisions and futher considerations to bring in more provisions and rights of way for the criminal,where does the dead victim and their family fit into this?
From where im standing prison equals free education to a lot of people ,free food,you have a bank account,and a wage,they have most things that we on the outside as the unemployed DONT HAVE.
A guy was punched in the head outside a pub in ennis he fell to the ground split the back of his head and died,the two brave men serving up pub justice,got a very weak sentence for his death.This happens all over ireland,every week without fail,i have never seen guards about to intervene,patrol or what ever good cops are supposed to do,yet when these scums are brought before a court they get more and more and more provisions.
I would like to ask the threadstarter cryfreedom,how would you like to be living next door to scum like this,and have to put up with that ************************?
Im sick of seeing posts all over the internet asking questions relating to what a criminals rights are,its time we made a DRASTIC SAVING AND SHOT THESE SCUMBAGS TO DEATH AND SAVE A FEW BILLION,ON THIER EXPENSE ON THE PUBLIC THE VICTIM AGAIN!
So if the Gardai catch one of the guys in your example you would prefer to see him feel the full rigour of the law and the other fella remain free? Or they catch Man A, lean on him to give up Man B, Man A gets a light sentence and Man B does the max. I'm not being petty here its a genuine question within the realms of this discussion. Though I do agree, being someone outside the legal system, sentencing here seems like a joke for the most part.
 

selkies

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They do have an unofficial system in place you could say,they will factor your level of co operation into the final sentencing depending on the severity of the crime brought before the courts.

I think our problem though,getting off track here is there are too many of these provisions and futher considerations to bring in more provisions and rights of way for the criminal,where does the dead victim and their family fit into this?
From where im standing prison equals free education to a lot of people ,free food,you have a bank account,and a wage,they have most things that we on the outside as the unemployed DONT HAVE.
A guy was punched in the head outside a pub in ennis he fell to the ground split the back of his head and died,the two brave men serving up pub justice,got a very weak sentence for his death.This happens all over ireland,every week without fail,i have never seen guards about to intervene,patrol or what ever good cops are supposed to do,yet when these scums are brought before a court they get more and more and more provisions.
I would like to ask the threadstarter cryfreedom,how would you like to be living next door to scum like this,and have to put up with that ************************?
Im sick of seeing posts all over the internet asking questions relating to what a criminals rights are,its time we made a DRASTIC SAVING AND SHOT THESE SCUMBAGS TO DEATH AND SAVE A FEW BILLION,ON THIER EXPENSE ON THE PUBLIC THE VICTIM AGAIN!
Have you ever been in a fight?

I never have. Well I was never in anything like a fight until I got drunk and decided for whatever reason to put a friend who is a girl on the floor, it worked out badly, she went down faster than I intended.

It's something that still haunts me, and why I generally avoid getting drunk and I have never been anything like what I was that night, and probably because of that, we are still friends. Also because she is an awesome person.

What you are suggesting is that if things had gone worse, if there had been something sharp were her head hit the ground, that I should have been shot?
As far as I can remember, I was in no state to be able to judge the surroundings, so really it's not anything I did wrong or right that she is alive right now, it's just luck, so really according to your system, by rights I should be dead.

If I agree, would you be willing to help me out, seen as I have promised someone I won't commit suicide?
 

former wesleyan

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In America plea bargaining has led to people being executed who were only peripheral to the crime.
A better question would be why not move to Civil Code Law ?
 

selkies

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In America plea bargaining has led to people being executed who were only peripheral to the crime.
A better question would be why not move to Civil Code Law ?
You need to be able to tell the difference between "led to" and "allowed"

Fill in the blanks:

literacy _____ protocols of zion
guns _____ people getting shot

Unless of course you can provide me with a court transcript where the judge says "your accomplice gave you up, you clearly deserve to die, only people who deserve to die get betrayed by people"

I imagine that particular problem would not exist in Ireland for a large number of reasons, the most obvious being that execution isn't allowed.

Also, why I think execution is wrong: every time you kill someone, the part of you that isn't a monster gets weaker, we don't want that to be someone's job
 

former wesleyan

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You need to be able to tell the difference between "led to" and "allowed"

Fill in the blanks:

literacy _____ protocols of zion
guns _____ people getting shot

Unless of course you can provide me with a court transcript where the judge says "your accomplice gave you up, you clearly deserve to die, only people who deserve to die get betrayed by people"

I imagine that particular problem would not exist in Ireland for a large number of reasons, the most obvious being that execution isn't allowed.

Also, why I think execution is wrong: every time you kill someone, the part of you that isn't a monster gets weaker, we don't want that to be someone's job
Well, pardon the f**k outa me !!
 

Abacus

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There is a unofficial system. The Gardai give evidence that the convicted person has been "very co-operative and helpful to them". The judge takes this into account in sentencing.

This is an incorrect assertion.
As a general rule, it appears that large scale criminals when they do give some 'assistance' to the Gardai actually plead with the Gardai not to say or acknowledge openly that they have done so because they know that their partners in crime are down on the court benches watching for just that so that they will know if there has been leakage to the Guards.
Occasionally it is reported that a Garda was able to progress an investigation as the result of some 'co-operation' and in such case you can bet your bottom dollar that that spake is coming from a force member who has little future as a detective. In today's world and in Dublin's Fair City, it would be tantamount to a death sentence for himself or a family member if this comment were made in respect of an identified defendant.
 

selkies

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Well, pardon the f**k outa me !!
Sorry, you're right, I was a little harsh, please accept this peace offering.

xkcd said:


Alt Text: What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!
All the same, you were wrong... I mean I'm sorry... that you were wrong, ZING!
;)
 

Old Mr Grouser

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... There does not seem to be any system [officially at least ] in this country whereby the courts or the Gardai can do deals with one accused to get them to implicate other guilty parties. To my naive brain it would seem to be a very efficient way to use scarce resources.

Why no "squealers charter" in this country?
A very sensible OP.

In the US there are set down sentencing guidelines -
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Federal_Sentencing_Guidelines"]United States Federal Sentencing Guidelines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Also - In most US states the more serious criminal charges carry 'indeterminate sentences', five-to-twenty years say, and arrested criminals know from the start that if they are found guilty of a crime in court they'll go straight to a tough prison, and if they fail to co-operate with the police then in five years time the parole board will be holding that against them. On the other hand they can co-operate, and bargain a lesser charge, with a shorter sentence which is therefore served in a softer prison.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indefinite_imprisonment"]Indefinite imprisonment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Scale_of_justice_2.svg" class="image" title="Scales of justice"><img alt="Scales of justice" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/100px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/100px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png[/ame]
 

cry freedom

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Like a lot of things in this country it seems it is only done on an ad hoc basis.
We seem to love "making it up as we go along".
Surely it would be more useful to the forces of law and order,and safer for the citizen, if it was enshrined in proper structures in our legal system?
It might also sow seeds of mistrust among the criminal community leading to cracks in their sense of solidarity.
 

Abacus

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Like a lot of things in this country it seems it is only done on an ad hoc basis.
We seem to love "making it up as we go along".
Surely it would be more useful to the forces of law and order,and safer for the citizen, if it was enshrined in proper structures in our legal system?
It might also sow seeds of mistrust among the criminal community leading to cracks in their sense of solidarity.

Well the British system has a lot of merit and has been tried and tested over the years.
It works like this. It can be abused (what system can't ?) but in the UK, it works and works well.

Most crimes have levels of imposition, i.e. 2 years for minor burglary, 7 years for serious burglary and ten years for armed robbery and 6 years for rape, etc.....approx that is.
These are ballpark figures because crimes are rarely identical.

Now if you are charged with a crime and decide (after reviewing the evidence in the Book of Evidence that will be adduced against you) to plead guilty then it is normal for a half sentence to be imposed (i.e. half the going rate for that category of crime) and if you decide to run the gauntlet and contest the evidence by pleading 'not guilty' then if found guilty you will get the full lash, i.e. the full going rate for that type of crime. A few of the charges are usually dropped in this manoeuvre too which helps to sweeten the deal as regards acceptance.

Apparently this practice is a great assist to the police as it drives the active criminals in their direction. Once they decide to plead guilty, then these crooks are much more malleable and approachable by the police who can make inroads intelligence wise in this situation as crooks who decide to plead usually want to ensure that the plea will be accepted. The police cannot be relied on to always have willing acceptance of guilty pleas to reduced charges and the crooks know that they must as a rule curry favour with the police, it's called 'getting all your ducks in a row'.

Worked over there for a few years in conjunction with the courts and that was the way it worked. Some senior Gardai I knew back here at that time often opined that they envied the system and wished it was available here. Some Gardai, in fact, positively drooled over the merits of such a system and reckoned that it would be even more beneficial to them than proportionately to the UK police
forces if adopted here.
 

Old Mr Grouser

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Well the British system has a lot of merit and has been tried and tested over the years. ... It can be abused (what system can't ?) but in the UK, it works and works well. ...
I'm not sure about that.

The situation in the UK is nowhere near as ridiculous as it is in Ireland, but it still has 'the revolving door' at the heart of it.

The local CID teams have to meet targets and produce a regular flow of convictions. And they to achieve that they rely in part on re-arresting the same petty criminals over and over again. Hence it's not in these detectives' interest to have people such as recidivist local burglars receiving long sentences; it deprives them of the 'repeat business'.

The Legal Aid lawyers are in the same situation. They also depend on their regular clients and the 'repeat business'.

I'm in favour of 'indeterminate sentences'.
 

DeputyEdo

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Easy way to do it:
Lets say 3 people murder someone (video of them or witnesses etc show that there were 3 involved). If the garda catch one, unless he gives up the names of the other two, he has to serve their sentences as well.
 

Old Mr Grouser

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Easy way to do it:
Lets say 3 people murder someone (video of them or witnesses etc show that there were 3 involved). If the garda catch one, unless he gives up the names of the other two, he has to serve their sentences as well.
With Indeterminate Sentencing then in that situation the arrested murderer would be sentenced to, say, ten to ninety nine years. If he hadn't co-operated with the police, or been dilatory in doing so, then he might well die in prison.
 


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