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Why on earth is it that loyalism doesn't realise that their appalling image internationally is on track to snuff out their traditions?

Toland

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Why on earth is it that loyalism doesn't realise that their appalling image internationally is on track to snuff out their traditions?

Take a look at this German video on the marching season in Belfast:

[video=youtube;z8LCsV6JWc8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8LCsV6JWc8[/video]

This, imo, is exactly how loyalism and unionism is seen internationally. Now this sort of coverage may be fair or unfair (personally, I suspect it's not all that far off the mark -- you may differ), but the absolute lack of engagement with the international media by loyalism and even by wider unionism is inexplicable other than by concluding that the leadership is well aware their protestations that they only want to carry on with their ancient 'traditions' aren't very much more convincing to outside observers than they are to the communities that have to put up with such 'traditions'.

Now it's all very well for BtB and others to complain (quite legitimately) about the continued sectarian destruction of Orange Halls and (again, quite legitimately) about the obvious fact that the "CNR community", despite the empty protestations that it's themmuns what's at fault, is also still rife with tribalism, but is it now time for the PUL people, between bouts of pointing out the specks in the eye of their neighbours, to attend to the beam in their own.

Look at the images in the video. They're more or less the images the world sees (when's it's not viewing pictures of scumbags spitting on schoolchildren, that is).

If the images are inaccurate, unfair or in any way not even-handed, then ffs make the effort to tell your side of the story (and give more than a moment's thought to how you present that story). And if they are fair, for the sake of the future of your legitimate traditions, do something to improve them.

Because if you don't, the paradoxically resentful absolutist triumphalism that those images portray is in danger of being replaced, not by an inclusivist, tolerant future, but by a new triumphalist absolutism that will slowly snuff out your traditions, legitimate and illegitimate, in the slow advance of tiocfaidh ár lá outbreedery (which, by the way, is actually no worse than your own community's brand of tribalism).

Another way of putting all the above might be the recently oft-repeated warning that if unionism fails to make Irishness welcome in NI, the union is doomed given the demographic situation, except that in my opinion the aforementioned demographics combined with the economics of the island leave the union doomed anyway.

Whatever about that, loyalists, unionists and orangemen need to identify which of their traditions they want to keep, and to actively begin abandoning traditions like the one of directing one-fingered salutes (or much worse) towards areas where their non-orange neighbours live, as well as to begin telling a story of an ancient community whose coherence and legitimacy is based on something more than just a contempt for and fear of the other community with which they have lived for centuries.

That really should be relatively easy, but I suspect it's not going to be, especially since many of your legitimate fears might now seem to outside observers to no longer have any rational grounds (due to the collapse of political catholicism and the guarantees contained in the GFA, among other things).
 
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GDPR

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Because of people like you sucking up to the likes of Cruimh and "between the bridges" on here in part- also Prods in general don't care that much about the opinions of outsiders which is probably less harmful than the carry on of Catholic apostates in the Free State who are willing to commit self destruction in order to appear "progressive" to outsiders.
 

Windowshopper

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I remember listening to one bit in the American podcast Chapo Trap House where one of the hosts talked about a group of leftists visiting NI who would have been fairly cynical of republicanism as just a form of nationalism. He commented that the contrast of the mural culture, the republican ones tried to emphasis a show of internationalism and anti-colonialism, while the message they drew from the loyalist ones were paramilitaries with the message of 'we're going to kill you'. Needless to say the murals left very different impressions.
 
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Craigmore..

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Another bla-bla-bla OP. You make the point about Loyalists that were seen spitting on Schoolgirls. But of course you conveniently leave out the part that when in the midst of those tensions, the only child to lose their life was a protestant one at the hands of a so called non-sectarian Irish Republican.

We're all from the same very small locality and despite the best attempts and attention given to Unionist culture by sinister republican elements, the culture is thriving. Your main problem of course is that people thoroughly enjoy the Loyal orders, whilst you have nothing to offer but hatred.
 

hollandia

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Another bla-bla-bla OP. You make the point about Loyalists that were seen spitting on Schoolgirls. But of course you conveniently leave out the part that when in the midst of those tensions, the only child to lose their life was a protestant one at the hands of a so called non-sectarian Irish Republican.

We're all from the same very small locality and despite the best attempts and attention given to Unionist culture by sinister republican elements, the culture is thriving. Your main problem of course is that people thoroughly enjoy the Loyal orders, whilst you have nothing to offer but hatred.
Yep. I knew deep down, Toland was tribalist, just like the rest of us.
 

Toland

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Another bla-bla-bla OP. You make the point about Loyalists that were seen spitting on Schoolgirls. But of course you conveniently leave out the part that when in the midst of those tensions, the only child to lose their life was a protestant one at the hands of a so called non-sectarian Irish Republican.

We're all from the same very small locality and despite the best attempts and attention given to Unionist culture by sinister republican elements, the culture is thriving. Your main problem of course is that people thoroughly enjoy the Loyal orders, whilst you have nothing to offer but hatred.
You shouldn't be so defensive. You need to tell your own story. The fact that you fly off the handle at my really pretty modest post illustrates exactly what I mean.

The last sentence of your post is demonstrably absurd, as well as being an even clearer illustration of why people get the (presumably incorrect) impression that loyalist marches are really only massive acts of the lamppost pissing.

If that impression is wrong, then put the story right without foaming at the mouth at people doing no more than expressing the impressions they have gleaned from what they have seen in the media.
 

razorblade

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Loyalism could not be more out of touch with mainstream British opinion if it tried they think of themselves as British while actual Brits laugh at them and see how silly they are.
 

Roll_On

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I think there's a cultural misunderstanding here. The die hard loyalists GENUINELY believe that the orange state 1922-1996 was the GREATEST place on Earth. They GENUINELY think that they are the GREATEST people on Earth. So you see for them it isn't problematic that the outside world takes a dim view of them. It's also not problematic for them that on the 17th of March every year school children from as far away as Okinawa paint their faces green white and orange to celebrate Irish culture.
 

Toland

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I think there's a cultural misunderstanding here. The die hard loyalists GENUINELY believe that the orange state 1922-1996 was the GREATEST place on Earth. They GENUINELY think that they are the GREATEST people on Earth. So you see for them it isn't problematic that the outside world takes a dim view of them. It's also not problematic for them that on the 17th of March every year school children from as far away as Okinawa paint their faces green white and orange to celebrate Irish culture.
It is, nevertheless, problematic for their future.
 

Craigmore..

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You shouldn't be so defensive. You need to tell your own story. The fact that you fly off the handle at my really pretty modest post illustrates exactly what I mean.

The last sentence of your post is demonstrably absurd, as well as being an even clearer illustration of why people get the (presumably incorrect) impression that loyalist marches are really only massive acts of the lamppost pissing.

If that impression is wrong, then put the story right without foaming at the mouth at people doing no more than expressing the impressions they have gleaned from what they have seen in the media.
Take yourself down to them. If you live in the same locality then there's nothing preventing you and we're not hiding anything.
 

Paddyc

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Another bla-bla-bla OP. You make the point about Loyalists that were seen spitting on Schoolgirls. But of course you conveniently leave out the part that when in the midst of those tensions, the only child to lose their life was a protestant one at the hands of a so called non-sectarian Irish Republican.

We're all from the same very small locality and despite the best attempts and attention given to Unionist culture by sinister republican elements, the culture is thriving. Your main problem of course is that people thoroughly enjoy the Loyal orders, whilst you have nothing to offer but hatred.
Was that the young lad who threw a half brick at a woman driving a car?

Another martyr for Ulster......

Remember him and his squishy fate the next time you sneer at a teenager who was killed by a plastic or rubber bullet.
 

Roll_On

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It is, nevertheless, problematic for their future.
I don't think they have a future. Indeed, given the head-in-the-sand attitude of late, I think they also don't believe they have a future and are just enjoying being belligerent in the present. Even our own most loyalist DOG admitted recently that his raison d'etre was to wind up tea eggs.
 

Glenshane4

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"You make the point about Loyalists that were seen spitting on Schoolgirls."


Have you apologised for the attacks by Prods on Catholic girls?

"But of course you conveniently leave out the part that when in the midst of those tensions, the only child to lose their life was a protestant one at the hands of a so called non-sectarian Irish Republican."

Stick to facts. The Prod "child" was a sixteen year old who threw a brick at a Catholic motorist who retaliated by using her car to knock him off his bicycle. Where is your evidence that the motorist was an Irish Republican? Have you apologised for this Prod brat throwing a brick at a Catholic? He was a student at the only integrated secondary school in Northern Belfast. It would seem that his integrated education had failed to persuade him to refrain from throwing bricks at Catholics.
 

Toland

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Take yourself down to them. If you live in the same locality then there's nothing preventing you and we're not hiding anything.
I don't really see myself as a defender of loyalist traditions. In fact, I'm pretty suspicious of a number of them. The fact that loyalists seem to be either unwilling or unable to make a competent case for them tends to deepen my suspicions about those traditions.

However, I'm genuinely willing to be put right.

By the way, you mention a "supposedly non-sectarian Irish Republican" in your initial response to my OP. If you were familiar with my posting on this site, you'd know that I have never ever claimed that what passes for "Republicanism" in Northern (or Southern) Ireland is any less sectarian than 'traditional' loyalism. On the contrary, I see them as being to all intents and purposes as bad as one another.

I don't live in the same locality, by the way. I live in Berlin. That's part of the point I'm making: the appalling image of loyalism from the outside.
 
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Toland

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I don't think they have a future. Indeed, given the head-in-the-sand attitude of late, I think they also don't believe they have a future and are just enjoying being belligerent in the present. Even our own most loyalist DOG admitted recently that his raison d'etre was to wind up tea eggs.
You may well be right.
 

Craigmore..

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I think there's a cultural misunderstanding here. The die hard loyalists GENUINELY believe that the orange state 1922-1996 was the GREATEST place on Earth. They GENUINELY think that they are the GREATEST people on Earth. So you see for them it isn't problematic that the outside world takes a dim view of them. It's also not problematic for them that on the 17th of March every year school children from as far away as Okinawa paint their faces green white and orange to celebrate Irish culture.
:lol:
 

Glenshane4

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"it's all very well for BtB and others to complain (quite legitimately) about the continued sectarian destruction of Orange Halls and (again, quite legitimately) about the obvious fact that the "CNR community", despite the empty protestations that it's themmuns what's at fault, is also still rife with tribalism,"

What could be wrong with meeting Prod tribalism with Catholic tribalism?
 


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