Why the Dail must Vote Against the guarantee tonightht

cozzy121

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It's time for TD's to finally redeem themselves in the eyes of the people the claim to represent.
It’s time for them to break from corrupt bertie and his property bubble and start anew.

David McWilliams: We must face reality - and end bank guarantee - David McWilliams, Columnists - Independent.ie

However, the key is to define reality. Welch explained to me that if you don't define the crisis, others will define it for you and then you play catch up and are on a hiding to nothing. Reality is not being defined. The reality is that the Irish Government's credibility is being contaminated by the banks. Today the guarantee should -- according to the original plan -- have lapsed and the banks should be left to deal with their own mess. The reason the guarantee was granted two years ago was to avoid a run on the banks in the chaos of autumn 2008. Then, once that was prevented, the Government could have seen which banks it was going to save and which it was going to let go. Clearly this would have involved using the clock ticking down to the end of the guarantee as an incentive for the creditors to come to the table and do a deal with the State. But instead of using the guarantee as a bargaining chip, it was used as a blanket bailout.
 


Disillusioned democrat

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It's time for TD's to finally redeem themselves in the eyes of the people the claim to represent.
It’s time for them to break from corrupt bertie and his property bubble and start anew.

David McWilliams: We must face reality - and end bank guarantee - David McWilliams, Columnists - Independent.ie
Primetime last night pretty much called the bankers liars and the government stupid for believing them, yet two years later the arrogance and power-lust of the FF/GP still prevents them from admitting they were wrong.

Returning after 12 weeks hols to vote on the most crucial decision this Dial may ever make demonstrates how seriously FF treat democracy.
 

sport02

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Fianna Fail and the Green's need to grow a pair,instead of balls the size of malteseers, and contempt for the people of Ireland.
They are deluded and arrogant, leading us into the abyss.
 

roc_

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Primetime last night pretty much called the bankers liars and the government stupid for believing them, yet two years later the arrogance and power-lust of the FF/GP still prevents them from admitting they were wrong.

Returning after 12 weeks hols to vote on the most crucial decision this Dial may ever make demonstrates how seriously FF treat democracy.
Primetime are being disingenuous.

If they are trying to make out that it was the government's 'stupidity', and the bankers' 'lies' that caused the actions that were taken, to be taken, then they are being disingenuous.

No - back then, the powers that be (RTE and Independent newspapers and Bloxhams included) knew what was in front of them, and many people said it out loud and clear (example, see Morgan Kelly below), but there was a systemic, institutional collusion (tacit) at national level, and refusal to acknowledge the facts and figures that were well in the public domain. - All in the name of hoping to keep the party going, and allow the 'players' to get out with their gains intact.

Just look at the primetime that was on back then - I think it is obvious what was going on.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11CCxv2ueiQ]YouTube - Morgan Kelly PrimeTime 20080930[/ame]
 
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Simbo67

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Primetime are being disingenuous.

If they are trying to make out that it was the government's 'stupidity', and the bankers' 'lies' that caused the actions that were taken, to be taken, then they are being disingenuous.

No - back then, the powers that be (RTE and Independent newspapers and Bloxhams included) knew what was in front of them, and many people said it out loud and clear (example, see Morgan Kelly below), but there was a systemic, institutional collusion (tacit) at national level, and refusal to acknowledge the facts and figures that were well in the public domain. - All in the name of hoping to keep the party going, and allow the 'players' to get out with their gains intact.

Just look at the primetime that was on back then - I think it is obvious what was going on.

YouTube - Morgan Kelly PrimeTime 20080930
Brendan Keenan saying that the bad loans would amount to 1% of the banks balance sheet. Bless.
 

Simbo67

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God Morgan Kelly called it completely right (but on the conservative side).
 

eoghanacht

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Michael Noonan on RTE radio at lunchtime seemed to be suggesting that FG would support the guarantee again.
Thats why they are no better than those on the opposite side of the house
 

roc_

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Brendan Keenan saying that the bad loans would amount to 1% of the banks balance sheet.
Exactly. You have to ask yourself how could a business editor of the largest national newspaper come out, and in the face of all (i) historical evidence of all preceding property booms and busts (ii) statistical evidence showing the kind of run up in prices and levels of credit expansion that we experienced (iii) theoretical evidence that has well described these phenomena and predicted the inevitable aftermath... say on national TV that bad loans would only be 1% of the bank balance sheet? Does he have a mind of his own? The answer is NO. He's bought and sold, just like so many in this country.
 

edor

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So what you would prefer is a run on Ireland's banks leaving us without a functioning banking system and the potential that you will only be able to withdraw up to €40 per day or similar until the IMF is finished with the country. Thereafter we will be in the crapper for years to come and still owe the money but with no chance of further captital raising. The public service will be decimated and wages will fall from where they are today right across the spectrum. Emigration will be greater than in the 80's. Sounds like fun. I hope you have your crash helmet fixed...I know it's had a few bumps on the way.
 

goosebump

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So what you would prefer is a run on Ireland's banks leaving us without a functioning banking system and the potential that you will only be able to withdraw up to €40 per day or similar until the IMF is finished with the country. Thereafter we will be in the crapper for years to come and still owe the money but with no chance of further captital raising. The public service will be decimated and wages will fall from where they are today right across the spectrum. Emigration will be greater than in the 80's. Sounds like fun.
The good ole boys of politics.ie wouldn't have it any other way!
 

SideysGhost

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God Morgan Kelly called it completely right (but on the conservative side).
That's the thing - all the estimates and predictions by Morgan or meself or the other "doomers" (not that I'm suggesting I have the stature of Morgan Kelly!) have all turned out to be conservative measured estimates that were actually optimistic compared to the ugly truth that has emerged.

The estimates and predictions of Govt and their supporters were just loony-tunes la-la-land nonsense plucked from the air, and have been repeatedly demonstrated to be utter nonsense, yet they stick to their guns and insist they were right and we are all "mad", while they furiously re-write history.

It's been a fairly surreal experience the last few years.
 

GDPR

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So what you would prefer is a run on Ireland's banks leaving us without a functioning banking system and the potential that you will only be able to withdraw up to €40 per day or similar until the IMF is finished with the country. Thereafter we will be in the crapper for years to come and still owe the money but with no chance of further captital raising. The public service will be decimated and wages will fall from where they are today right across the spectrum. Emigration will be greater than in the 80's. Sounds like fun. I hope you have your crash helmet fixed...I know it's had a few bumps on the way.
Please, you're thinking way too deeply about this, they've no time for that sort of thing around here.

Off with you now, go on, away with you.
 

Simbo67

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So what you would prefer is a run on Ireland's banks leaving us without a functioning banking system and the potential that you will only be able to withdraw up to €40 per day or similar until the IMF is finished with the country. Thereafter we will be in the crapper for years to come and still owe the money but with no chance of further captital raising. The public service will be decimated and wages will fall from where they are today right across the spectrum. Emigration will be greater than in the 80's. Sounds like fun. I hope you have your crash helmet fixed...I know it's had a few bumps on the way.
How's it going right now do you think?
Function banking system?
IMF threat of coming in?
In the crapper for a generation?
Public services about to be destroyed?
Emigration?
 

ivnryn

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So what you would prefer is a run on Ireland's banks leaving us without a functioning banking system and the potential that you will only be able to withdraw up to €40 per day or similar until the IMF is finished with the country.
They choices aren't just between FF's policy and complete destruction. FG shouldn't just support it without having reviewed the motion properly.

If FF isn't going to cooperate, then neither should FG.
 

edor

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Fair point Simbo; but nothing on the nuclear Winter we will get if there is a run on the Banks. It will take weeks rather than months/years to occur. We need to be realistic here. You're already gone. The rest of us have to live here.
 


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