Why was our independence such a failure?

Schomberg

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In all honesty, what went wrong?

Too much clerical control?
Lack of experience in government?
?

Would some more "neutral" party like Labour have done a better job?

social backwardness, economic collapse and utter failure to do anything to fix it, families breeding just to send their offspring abroad to send back money so they could eat...

Without the European Union, heaven knows where we'd be...

Before the usual suspects come out, accusing me of trolling for asking the question, I'm just genuinely interested in what the more economically minded think were out short comings and why we went "african" on the whole independence thing...
 


EUrJokingMeRight

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Local Tribalism. National Docility. Mass Silence and inaction.
 
G

Gadjodilo

A relative gain in standard of living that's pretty much unprecedented in Europe is not failure - this despite the lack of huge oil resources such as the UK had.
 

Schomberg

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A relative gain in standard of living that's pretty much unprecedented in Europe is not failure - this despite the lack of huge oil resources such as the UK had.
all thanks to the European Union. The question though is why we were so lost for so long after gaining independence and why we did nothing but go deeper and deeper into a black hole...
 

meriwether

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The state of the Republic of Ireland is not a failure, nor a failed state.

It has problems, undoubtedly, and these problems (mostly economic) will get worse.

But this does not equal 'failed state'.

Recessions (and depressions) are a feature of Capitalism. Ergo, every capitalist state will have cycles. By this extension, this would mean that every capitalist state has failed at one or more points of its existence. Which is patently nonsense.

Afailed state is Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Somalia, and nearer to home, good old Northern Ireland.
ROI is light years away from that. We're not Germany, but we aren't Somalia either.
 

deiseguy

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This one has potential providing everybody plays nice. Fair dues to schomberg for posting it.

I agree totally with you re the EU. I think the comment about Africa was close to the mark. Our constitution enshrined tribalism with the level of representation and the PR STV system which has choked off the development of national politics and rewarded "local" politicians in a disproportionate manner.
 
G

Gadjodilo

all thanks to the European Union. The question though is why we were so lost for so long after gaining independence and why we did nothing but go deeper and deeper into a black hole...
No, it wasn't all thanks to the EU. Transfers that amount to a couple of percentage points of GDP do not create growth rates of 8-10%.
 

Schomberg

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The state of the Republic of Ireland is not a failure, nor a failed state.

It has problems, undoubtedly, and these problems (mostly economic) will get worse.

But this does not equal 'failed state'.

Recessions (and depressions) are a feature of Capitalism. Ergo, every capitalist state will have cycles. By this extension, this would mean that every capitalist state has failed at one or more points of its existence. Which is patently nonsense.

Afailed state is Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Somalia, and nearer to home, good old Northern Ireland.
ROI is light years away from that. We're not Germany, but we aren't Somalia either.
that's not what I was saying. things aren't *that* bad now, but until we joined the EU things were diabolical. why did we fail to make something of our independence alone?
 

willoughby

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Clerical dominance definitely did'nt help but other than that we could of turned out a whole lot worse, that's not to say that we could'nt have turned out better and we should have but at least we're not like some of the other former british colonies.
 

Schomberg

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No, it wasn't all thanks to the EU. Transfers that amount to a couple of percentage points of GDP do not create growth rates of 8-10%.
and this was all pre-EU?
 

Disillusioned democrat

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In all honesty, what went wrong?

Too much clerical control?
Lack of experience in government?
?

Would some more "neutral" party like Labour have done a better job?

social backwardness, economic collapse and utter failure to do anything to fix it, families breeding just to send their offspring abroad to send back money so they could eat...

Without the European Union, heaven knows where we'd be...

Before the usual suspects come out, accusing me of trolling for asking the question, I'm just genuinely interested in what the more economically minded think were out short comings and why we went "african" on the whole independence thing...

FF Gombeenism - it transpired that the most influential elements in the independence movement were really looking to replace the Brits and not free Ireland.

Subsequent governments' obseqiusness to church just a cover - in fact church kept the little people in check, so good for Gov.ie.

Once Dev disregarded the results of the referendum on accepting the treaty and licked off civil war we were always going to fail.
 

inchicore_republican

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The Catholic Church and the right wing policies of successive Governments doomed the state to years of poverty.
 
G

Gadjodilo

The state of the Republic of Ireland is not a failure, nor a failed state.

It has problems, undoubtedly, and these problems (mostly economic) will get worse.

But this does not equal 'failed state'.

Recessions (and depressions) are a feature of Capitalism. Ergo, every capitalist state will have cycles. By this extension, this would mean that every capitalist state has failed at one or more points of its existence. Which is patently nonsense.

Afailed state is Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Somalia, and nearer to home, good old Northern Ireland.
ROI is light years away from that. We're not Germany, but we aren't Somalia either.
Well said, Meriwether. Threads like this (and usually the person starting them) badly need a sense of perpective.
 

meriwether

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all thanks to the European Union. The question though is why we were so lost for so long after gaining independence and why we did nothing but go deeper and deeper into a black hole...
Well, yes. the EU has been very important to us, but then again, it has been important for all countries and members. Germany and France are exporters. Do you think they would be better off withour the free market? Greece is availing of a bailout fund.

And what does 'deeper and deeper into a black hole' mean?
 

sondagefaux

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Who says it's been a failure?

We've gone from being a largely rural, peasant society, strongly socially conservative where religion was central to people's lives to a mainly (sub)urban society, increasingly socially liberal, where religion is becoming peripheral.

In addition, Ireland has opened itself to the world, participates enthusiastically in many international organisations and is one of the most globalised countries in the world.

The changes to Irish society since independence are almost entirely as a result of the choices Irish people made.

Apart from the fact that Irish society reflects the choices and decisions taken by Irish people (rather than choices and decisions taken in London), Ireland is still a very materially prosperous country, even now.

If you think that Ireland has gone 'African' I suggest you visit Zimbabwe or a similar country.

It might enable to realise that the reality of Irish society is far, far different from the puerile hyperbolic image that some people have of it.
 
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Scipio

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all thanks to the European Union.
No, it's not. And even if membership of (or as I suspect you're indicating, bankrolling by) the European Union were the only factor, why did countries like Portugal and Italy not make similar economic advances?
 

Schomberg

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Well, yes. the EU has been very important to us, but then again, it has been important for all countries and members. Germany and France are exporters. Do you think they would be better off withour the free market? Greece is availing of a bailout fund.

And what does 'deeper and deeper into a black hole' mean?
am I to take it that you feel the RoI was a success from the 1920s until our membership of the European Union?
 


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