Why was our independence such a failure?

Schomberg

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Are people here purposely ignoring my question?

I'm not asking about Ireland 1980-2010. I'm asking about independent Ireland 1922-1980. Hence it's in the history section. FFS.
 


R

RepublicanSocialist1798

Disagree with you about the EU. The Irish economy grew substantially during the sixties without the EU.

Ireland wasn't a failed state. It was insulated from the world mainly thanks to clerical dominance.
 

meriwether

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am I to take it that you feel the RoI was a success from the 1920s until our membership of the European Union?
Yes.

I'm open to persuasion if facts are provided to demonstrate that it was a 'failed state' rescued by the EU.

The phrases 'failed state' and 'rescued' are the operative ones here. Away you go.
 

Congalltee

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This is a silly way of looking at the serious issue of what is wrong with the governance of our State. Independence has been a great success in terms of standard of living, life expectancy, health and education of our citizens. Compare us on these fronts to Northern Ireland, Scotland or wales if you disagree.

The main problems which exist here are 720,000 people in relative poverty, 1200 people in Victorian asylums, 11,000 male prisoners detained in sub-human conditions, social welfare dependence, alcohol/drug zombies in our cities and town centres, forced emigration for tens of thousands for the next 3 years at the very least (we could have economic stagnation if our gutless crony capitalist culture remains at the heart of goverment). So we have problems, but the idea that we would have been better off under British rule is a sick joke.
 

jtbooker

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louis bernard

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that's not what I was saying. things aren't *that* bad now, but until we joined the EU things were diabolical. why did we fail to make something of our independence alone?
When the rest of Europe was rebuilding and retooling after WW2 thanks to marshal aid money. We remained a priest ridden backwater and economic waste land thanks to De Velera.
 
G

Gadjodilo

Are people here purposely ignoring my question?

I'm not asking about Ireland 1980-2010. I'm asking about independent Ireland 1922-1980. Hence it's in the history section. FFS.
Then it was rather remiss of you not to mention that in the original post.

The NI conflict badly hurt investment in the RoI. Disastrous economic management by FF also did damage.

I'm out of this thread now.
 

Scipio

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The British economy from circa post-World War I to the early 80s was in a near permanent state of paralysis (and an economy which ours, for varying historical reasons, was closely bound to). Upon joining the EU in 1973, Britain was one of the EU's three poorest states, hence the need for large transfers and one of the justifications behind Thatcher's later seeking of the rebate.

Has continuing British independence since 1921 been an economic failure?

Some perspective is badly needed here.
 

sondagefaux

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that's not what I was saying. things aren't *that* bad now, but until we joined the EU things were diabolical. why did we fail to make something of our independence alone?
We chose to join the EU. And things weren't that bad when we joined. Ireland only chose to open its markets to the global economic system and to attempt industrialisation in the late 1950s.

We joined the EEC as it was then in the early 1970s.

The economic progress that Ireland made in the short space of the 15 years or so prior to joining was what enabled us to join.

If Ireland had chosen to participate fully in the global economic system prior to the late 1950s rather than follow a path of protectionism and attempted autarchy (policies chosen by many other states in the decades prior to WWII), then it could have reached a higher level of prosperity even sooner.

Joining the EEC was an expression of the desire of the Irish people to continue the economic and social changes that had been begun in the late 1950s and which continue to this day.

To characterise our independence as a failure because of cyclical economic difficulties is grossly disproprotionate.

Obviously it suits your political agenda to try and characterise Ireland as a failure but the reality doesn't match your rhetoric.
 
R

RepublicanSocialist1798

Then it was rather remiss of you not to mention that in the original post.

The NI conflict badly hurt investment in the RoI. Disastrous economic management by FF also did damage.

I'm out of this thread now.
The Energy crises of the 70's affected the economy more so and not the war in the north.

FF did **** up especially with their spending cuts bonanza of 1977.
 

Schomberg

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Yes.

I'm open to persuasion if facts are provided to demonstrate that it was a 'failed state' rescued by the EU.

The phrases 'failed state' and 'rescued' are the operative ones here. Away you go.

thanks for that. I'll bow to your expert knowledge and say Ireland pre EU was a massive success. Why did people even bother to immigrate from this utopia?
 

Keith-M

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I think the problem all goes back to 1916 and the aftermath. The was no widespead public support for the rebels of 1916 and the goodwill towards them and their cause only came with their executions and the ridiculous decision to introduce conscription into Ireland in the latter phase of the Great War. What you ended up with was a feeling of Anglophobia rather than any great desire for independence.

To justify and sustain independence the leaders of the IFS had to justify its raison d'etre. It had to develop a mythical sense of seperatness. Not only did they try to revivve the already declining Irish Gaelic, they tried to introduce a separate typeface/alphabet. They couldn't just turn their back on the Anglican church, they had to swallow the RC line, hook line and sinker. We now know the dreadful legacy that doing this created.

To have any pro-Anglo sympathies was immediatly portrayed as being anti-Irish and traitorous.

When you have a statee build on such shallow foundatations, you are asking for trouble. You can either go one of two ways. You can go the post-independence Norwegian route where you build a strong mutually beneficial relationship with your former governors, to the benefit of both countries or you can continue the myth of difference and use all available opportunities to attempt to bolster your indepenence. We chose the latter.

So we ended up with a string of second rate political leaders (DeValera, Haughey) who's had Anglophobia as a cornerstone of their support base and could do whatever they liked and weren't questioned, because it was seen as being anti-Irish. Ask Bruce Arnold how this worked!
 

Schomberg

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Obviously it suits your political agenda to try and characterise Ireland as a failure but the reality doesn't match your rhetoric.
and it obviously suits your agenda to say it was a swell place to live.

pot. kettle.
 

Radix

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The Catholic Church and the right wing policies of successive Governments doomed the state to years of poverty.
And what did these two great pillars have in common?

Yes they were staffed by our fellow Irish citizens. It's all to easy to constantly point the finger at somewhere else Inch. We're going to have to grow up and take responsibility for our own affairs now that things are a bit rougher.

A couple of years ago, we were all shoutin about how great we were, 'Ireland the envy of the world' was the typical headline. Now that the wheels have come of the cart and Ireland Inc has become Ireland Sink, we cannot say we're not all responsible at least in some part.

There were people from working class areas of Dublin visiting Fuenngerola, (excuse the spelling), Santa Ponsa and Lanza bleedin rotty a few times a year. They were climbing over each other to get on 'my' bleedin plane.

We borrowed and borrowed and spent and spent like there would be no tomorrow.

And now you protest when we have to hand it back. We deserve everything we get.:)
 

splashy

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The mentality of the country from before the Rising till a long time after was destructive, not constructive; namely, 'Brits out'. We even had a civil war because they weren't out enough, politically and geographically. Constructive people and policies were there (Griffith, Browne, etc.) but the likes of Dev with his 'cut of your nose to spite your face' economic policies retarded the progress of the new state greatly.

That's just one element, of course; the Church and WWII didn't aid us either.
 

sondagefaux

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am I to take it that you feel the RoI was a success from the 1920s until our membership of the European Union?
Was Ireland in the 1920s and 1930s any worse off than the Britain of the General Strike and the Jarrow Marches?

The timing of our indpendence was lousy - within a few years the global capitalist economy had nearly collpased, followed by the Great Depression, followed by WWII.

Any newly independent state which was a largely rural, peasant society would have had a bloody tough time in those years.

Why don't you check out the 1920s and early 1930s economic and social history of some of the states that became newly independent after WWI?

I'll think you'll find that Ireland's economic failures in those decades wasn't exactly unprecedented, either when compared with largely rural, newly independent states or other states.

Ireland's real chances came after WWII and we have largely taken the opportunities presented to us.

There have been failures, of vision, of policy, of governance which means Ireland hasn't reached its full potential.


But to characterise it as a failed state is utterly wrongheaded.
 

sondagefaux

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and it obviously suits your agenda to say it was a swell place to live.

pot. kettle.
I never said it was a 'swell place' to live in during the past. But it's nowhere near the collapsed entity that you seem to think it is.

I think it's time you did a bit of travelling to get a bit of perspective.
 

Thac0man

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that's not what I was saying. things aren't *that* bad now, but until we joined the EU things were diabolical. why did we fail to make something of our independence alone?
Yes, staying on topic. I have heard a school of opinion that believes that post 1916 Ireland replaced one ruling elite with another. Given some of the veterans of 1916 died in a state of poverty and spent their lives without recognition its hard to argue otherwise. As I said before even Dev died a rich man.
 

meriwether

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thanks for that. I'll bow to your expert knowledge and say Ireland pre EU was a massive success. Why did people even bother to immigrate from this utopia?
I'm bemused by this responce.

I'm asking you to demonstrate to me why it was a failure. You started this thread. I fail to see anything unreasonable in asking you to back up your claim.
 

Schomberg

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I'm bemused by this responce.
you are? how odd...

I'm asking you to demonstrate to me why it was a failure. You started this thread. I fail to see anything unreasonable in asking you to back up your claim.
I asked people who'd be more clued into ecnomics why we were so badly off. you told me we were a great success, so I said thanks and wondered why people even bothered to emigrate in such high numbers if the place was so great.

sondagefaux said:
I think it's time you did a bit of travelling to get a bit of perspective.
i love how patronising that is.
 


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