Why was our independence such a failure?

Fr. Hank Tree

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The thread title begs the question. The indepedence of Ireland is partial in many ways. Therefore, we cannot conclude that it has failed.
 


Socratus O' Pericles

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In all honesty, what went wrong?

Too much clerical control?
Lack of experience in government?
?

Would some more "neutral" party like Labour have done a better job?

social backwardness, economic collapse and utter failure to do anything to fix it, families breeding just to send their offspring abroad to send back money so they could eat...

Without the European Union, heaven knows where we'd be...

Before the usual suspects come out, accusing me of trolling for asking the question, I'm just genuinely interested in what the more economically minded think were out short comings and why we went "African" on the whole independence thing...
We are in a trough now.
I wonder how much credence this theory would have got 7 or 8 years ago a, a mere twitch in historical terms.


I refer you to Tim Pat Coogan's excellent history of Ireland ion the 20th Century and look at the conditions of a significant proportion of Irish citizens either side of 100 years ago.

Similarly I refer you to the emigration crises of the 50's and the 80's or the Famine museum in Strokestown.

Things only look bad relatively. Irish people are now clearly amongst the most well to do in the world.
Tax haven Liechtenstein , Norway, Luxembourg,* Switzerland, and Denmark were among the highest per capita Gross National Income (GNI) in the world in 2008, according to World Bank Development Indicators 2009. Ireland is in 11th place, according to the Atlas Method (see below) and 24th, according to the purchasing Power Parity Method.
I believe we need to change alright -a more left right dynamic in politics and a more pragmatic approach to law enforcement -not just the criminal law0-would help.
 

sondagefaux

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I asked people who'd be more clued into ecnomics why we were so badly off. you told me we were a great success, so I said thanks and wondered why people even bothered to emigrate in such high numbers if the place was so great.
Who said it was great? But was it a failure in comparison to the UK or other newly independent and mainly rural states?

Any state that became independent a few years before the Wall Street Crash, followed by the Great Depression, followed by WWII was bound to face huge economic difficulties.

Why was Ireland so badly off in the first few decades of independence?

Mainly because it was so badly off pre-independence, and mainly because of the global economic crisis that it encountered a few years after independence.

Look at the advances Ireland made post-WWII and pre-EEC, especially in the 15 year or so period from 1957 to 1972/73.

Look at the advances its made since then, compare it with other states and then tell us that Ireland has been a failure.

If you want a real example of economic and social failure, look to Northern Ireland.

i love how patronising that is.
It was intended to be. You come across as an immature idiot who has very little perspective on Ireland's relative place in the world. Travel, see a bit of the world, and you might get some of the perspective you so clearly lack.
 

bobbysands81

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In all honesty, what went wrong?

Too much clerical control?
Lack of experience in government?
?

Would some more "neutral" party like Labour have done a better job?

social backwardness, economic collapse and utter failure to do anything to fix it, families breeding just to send their offspring abroad to send back money so they could eat...

Without the European Union, heaven knows where we'd be...

Before the usual suspects come out, accusing me of trolling for asking the question, I'm just genuinely interested in what the more economically minded think were out short comings and why we went "african" on the whole independence thing...
I can't accept your opening post as it is false.

We have our problems but only someone with genuine hatred for this State would claim it to be a failed State.

You are an orangeman, you do not believe in democracy as you do not see Catholics as your equal so you're not really in a position to lecture on something like this - if your sort of bigotted sectarian orange order folk ran this State - we'd be ************************ed.

You look up to a Nation and want to be part of a nation that has raped about a third of the world... and was and still is responsible for countless deaths in the name of "democracy".
 

Schomberg

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Who said it was great? But was it a failure in comparison to the UK or other newly independent and mainly rural states?

Any state that became independent a few years before the Wall Street Crash, followed by the Great Depression, followed by WWII was bound to face huge economic difficulties.

Why was Ireland so badly off in the first few decades of independence?
fenians. it's all someones else fault :lol:

Mainly because it was so badly off pre-independence,
thats not what JJ Lee says.





If you want a real example of economic and social failure, look to Northern Ireland.
might have something to do with you lot blowing the place to pieces.




It was intended to be. You come across as an immature idiot who has very little perspective on Ireland's relative place in the world. Travel, see a bit of the world, and you might get some of the perspective you so clearly lack.
i've been to many places fkucnuts, Ireland the worst of the lot. your idea of Irelands place in the world, and the worlds idea of Ireland place are two different things,.
 

Schomberg

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kerdasi amaq

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Independence has not failed Ireland. Fianna Fáil has failed independence.
 

Fr. Hank Tree

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What a fantastic advertisement for orangeism you are. With all your hatred its strange that you still live amongst us.

Your hatred defines you.
Keep 'em coming i say. As the sense of panic rises, the greater the hatred, the louder the volume, the quicker the demise :)
 

meriwether

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i've been to many places fkucnuts, Ireland the worst of the lot.
For example?

I've been to lots of places too. Some were better than Ireland, like Germany and Oz, some the same, like Wales, England, Spain, and some were worse, like Thailand.
 

The Field Marshal

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In all honesty, what went wrong?

Too much clerical control?
Lack of experience in government?
?

Would some more "neutral" party like Labour have done a better job?

social backwardness, economic collapse and utter failure to do anything to fix it, families breeding just to send their offspring abroad to send back money so they could eat...

Without the European Union, heaven knows where we'd be...

Before the usual suspects come out, accusing me of trolling for asking the question, I'm just genuinely interested in what the more economically minded think were out short comings and why we went "african" on the whole independence thing...
The only thing wrong is British colonial pessimists like Schomberg who have never recovered from the shock of rejection by the Irish.

Unfortunately these types of creatures have also got a foothold in the Irish media particularly the Irish Times.
Their viral ideas breed disaffection and dissatisfaction.
One wonders what pathology drives their incessant moaning.:rolleyes:
 

sondagefaux

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fenians. it's all someones else fault :lol:
NI's inability to stand on its own two feet without huge transfers from England, its deindustrialisation are down to 'fenians'?

thats not what JJ Lee says.
The part of the island of Ireland that became the Irish Free State was a pretty poor place.

It's come on by leaps and bounds since independence and is now one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

That progress began in earnest in the years after WWII, especially in the 15 year period from 1957 to 1972.


might have something to do with you lot blowing the place to pieces.
'You lot'? You mean citizens and residents of the United Kingdom?

i've been to many places fkucnuts, Ireland the worst of the lot.
Just the kind of graceless, immature response I was expecting...
 

Schomberg

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For example?

I've been to lots of places too. Some were better than Ireland, like Germany and Oz, some the same, like Wales, England, Spain, and some were worse, like Thailand.
I've been to plently. Granted, I'd rather be sick in Ireland than Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece, but that's about it as far as Europe goes.
 

Scipio

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thats not what JJ Lee says.
J.J. Lee's work, if I remember correctly, includes Ireland as a whole, i.e. the North-Eastern industrial core. With this taken out (and even with it in), Ireland was a very poor country, even by contemporary standards.



fenians. it's all someones else fault :lol:


might have something to do with you lot blowing the place to pieces.
Poor, really poor.

In 1965, Northern Ireland was already the poorest region, per capita, in the United Kingdom. The Depression and the post-war obsolesce of Northern Ireland's key economic industries did for the local economy long before the Troubles came about.


i've been to many places fkucnuts, Ireland the worst of the lot. your idea of Irelands place in the world, and the worlds idea of Ireland place are two different things,.
With respect, that is absolute bulls@it.

Have you lived in or even been to the numerous deindustrialized regions of Wallonia, southern Italy, or parts of the Rhur?

If you want to see true poverty spend a while in cities like Kaiserslautern, Leipzig or even somewhere closer to home like Burnley before making such sweeping comments.
 


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