Will Irish Farming be sacrificed at the altar of Climate Change?

greagh

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As I recall around 10% of the total national emission come from two facilities on the shannon estuary - Moneypoint and the Rusal plant at Aughinish.

Replacing the power generated in the former and shuttering a profitable private enterprise in the case of the latter might not be easy.

But for over a 1/3 of the total 30% reduction commitment it might be a quicker win than changing the transport network entirely or in 10 years eliminating the one sustainable ( economically) industry based on natural resources .

That being said there is a conversation to be had on the long term direction of agriculture in Ireland. I read surprisingly on twitter recently of the massive growth in herds that are held in high intensity feedlots. this seems completely "off brand" with what Irish produced food should be trying to do. And , in context of this topic, a retrograde step to produce a lower margin product.

Plus in the very long term , and I am sure far smarter guys than me or any of the frauds masquerading in economists in the Irish media and NGO sector can run an estimate, there is a question of whether demographic growth & expansion of consumption in developing nations can , or to what extent will, forestall the impact of an inevitable long term decline in the per capita consumption of meat & dairy in the developed world.
Interestingly the feedlots are mainly under the ownership of of the main beef processors who use them as a tool to manipulate the market ie in times of scarcity they introduce feedlot cattle to take up slack and drive prices down .
Farming may have questions to answer on emissions but if govt policy was up to date the agri sector could make a contribution via forestry , biogas , peatland carbon sinks, wind farms etc but unfortunately our govt lags behind our European counterparts in essentially having no strategy on carbon credits .
 


clearmurk

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I think that's a valid point and something that needs to be calculated every time approval's given for one of these data centres. You seem to be trying to set this up as an A vs B issue which this isn't though. There are various streams of the economy that work long term, there are various ones that won't. A govt's job is to try and address the latter. Farming's actually easier to do logistically because of the very high subsidies given.

Those who pay the piper call the tune.
The only reason that farming is "easier" is because it doesn't counter the MNC subservience that has captured the institutional state in every respect.
 

Sync

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The only reason that farming is "easier" is because it doesn't counter the MNC subservience that has captured the institutional state in every respect.
Well yes partially. It doesn't yield as much profit for the state. It doesn't provide as many direct and indirect jobs. But the key reason is the amount of subsidisation that makes it easier to pass legislation to directly impact it. But this is the gig. The amount of money taken by farmers from the State and the EU means that they need to pull behind whatever solution the State comes up with. Or don't take the money and do your own thing.
 

wombat

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The farming sector have been a fairly loyal constituency for FG in particular, but that could all change in the next few years. You could see farmers deserting FG over this.
It comes down to numbers - lose support of the farmers to save a few marginal south Dublin seats? Its not going to happen.
 

Watcher2

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I notice that Fingal Co Council [which incls. many farms in the north of the County is opening a public consultation on its Plan to combat Climate Change:

Climate Change
A Strategy Towards Climate Change Action Plans for the Dublin Local Authorities has been published

Climate Change : : Fingal County Council

I cant help feeling end result will be an increase in Property Taxes and Bin Charges etc to cover all this.

Yet the contribution of Fingal residents to 'Climate Change' could only be described as minimalist
North Co Dublin farms are basically tillage, no? I thought the climate change issue in farming was around herds, not crops.
 

clearmurk

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Well yes partially. It doesn't yield as much profit for the state. It doesn't provide as many direct and indirect jobs. But the key reason is the amount of subsidisation that makes it easier to pass legislation to directly impact it. But this is the gig. The amount of money taken by farmers from the State and the EU means that they need to pull behind whatever solution the State comes up with. Or don't take the money and do your own thing.
Do you have any numbers to back all this up?

If the argument is about subsidies, fine remove them for everyone - including the wind farmers, data centres, MNCs, and their developer friends.

Your problem is that you are somehow differentiating one group of subsidies as better or more deserving than another. And there you are into the world of personal bank account interests.
 

Polybius

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Fine Gael have become the party of rich liberal Dublin. They'll sell out the farmers if Brussels instructs them to.
 

Watcher2

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People should be able to engage in whatever business they want as long as it's legal and they're self employed.

Farmers aren't really self employed. They recieve 1.5 billion in support a year in Ireland alone. So if the elected govts of the day decides that the future of the sustainability of the human race is going to be eating crickets, then guess what? You're going to stop breeding sheep and you're going to breed crickets. And if you don't like that, that's entirely your right. Refuse the CAP and do your thing. Live your best life.
That's a very odd conceptualisation of "employment/employee".
 

Sync

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Do you have any numbers to back all this up?
Yes, every budget from the last 20 years, every assessment of the Irish economy. Pick any one of them and there you go.

If the argument is about subsidies, fine remove them for everyone - including the wind farmers, data centres, MNCs, and their developer friends.

Your problem is that you are somehow differentiating one group of subsidies as better or more deserving than another. And there you are into the world of personal bank account interests.
No. It's nothing to do with "Deserve". It's to do with the long term planning for the country. If the central plan is "Wind farms good, beef farms bad" and the govt is subsidising those 2 areas then guess what? The govt's entitled to adjust subsidies to promote the former. If they decide "Wind farms bad, beef farms good" then they can do the latter.

The person working in McDonalds doesn't get to decide if they work on the chips or the fish station. They do if they run their own chip shop.
 

Watcher2

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Do you have any numbers to back all this up?

If the argument is about subsidies, fine remove them for everyone - including the wind farmers, data centres, MNCs, and their developer friends.

Your problem is that you are somehow differentiating one group of subsidies as better or more deserving than another. And there you are into the world of personal bank account interests.
And many of the farming detractors isolate it as an industry unto itself. What they appear to miss is that it is the bottom of a very important supply chain. Take it in conjunction with dairies (Kerry, Glanbia etc) and the factories (Goodman, whatever the chicken processors are called etc) and much more.
 

Sync

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That's a very odd conceptualisation of "employment/employee".
What's the effective difference? If your salary is paid 60% by a party, if that party also provides your pension and your healthcare, what's the functional difference? I've no issue funding agriculture to the degree we do. It's really important to get right.I have an issue when the people receiving that funding don't want to play ball on the national interest as defined by the govt paying them.

The focus needs to be on what's projected to be best for the country in 50 years.
 

Watcher2

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What's the effective difference? If your salary is paid 60% by a party, if that party also provides your pension and your healthcare, what's the functional difference? I've no issue funding agriculture to the degree we do. I have an issue when the people receiving that funding don't want to play ball on the national interest as defined by the govt paying them.
everyone receives pension, everyone has the same access to basic healthcare (don't laugh). Subsidies are not salaries. You appear to know little of employment law or practices.
 

hollandia

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Is all pollution a contributor to climate change?
Depends on how those fertilisers are produced for the direct effect. For the indirect effect, nitrates are a key water polluter leading to eutrophication which in turn affects aquatic plant life (a CO2 store). So yes, all pollution, directly or indirectly affects climate change.
 

Sync

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everyone receives pension, everyone has the same access to basic healthcare (don't laugh). Subsidies are not salaries. You appear to know little of employment law or practices.
It's not in employment law. I'm focusing on the desired outcome, not the logistics of what you need to get there.

I think in general "Central planning" has had a horrible rap given the atrocities that it led to in the Soviet Union, Korea, Venezuela etc. But when it's done right? It's really effective. Singapore 30 years ago, Malaysia 20 years ago, the UK's NHS 60 odd years ago: When a govt sits down and REALLY thinks about the future and focuses on a defined objective and then creates steps and laws needed to get to that objective, it can yield results.

Ireland's not good at that. They've done it in some areas of the economy (We want to get MNCs in. We want to get medical and aviation in) and it's gone well. But areas like farming, infrastructure, health, education etc etc have just been allowed to drift. The children's hospital is a perfect ongoing example of this.

And I get that this is a corporatist view. I just can't get around the fact that the EU pumps 1.5 billion into Irish farmers bank accounts without having a significant amount of input into what's grown.
 

Watcher2

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Depends on how those fertilisers are produced for the direct effect. For the indirect effect, nitrates are a key water polluter leading to eutrophication which in turn affects aquatic plant life (a CO2 store). So yes, all pollution, directly or indirectly affects climate change.
OK, fair enough.
 

clearmurk

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What's the effective difference? If your salary is paid 60% by a party, if that party also provides your pension and your healthcare, what's the functional difference? I've no issue funding agriculture to the degree we do. It's really important to get right.I have an issue when the people receiving that funding don't want to play ball on the national interest as defined by the govt paying them.

The focus needs to be on what's projected to be best for the country in 50 years.
Well the clear problem is that this government does not have a mandate for carbon taxes, or similar interventions.

Or maybe it's all in the last election manifestos of FG and FF, if only I were to look there as well?
 

Watcher2

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It's not in employment law. I'm focusing on the desired outcome, not the logistics of what you need to get there.

I think in general "Central planning" has had a horrible rap given the atrocities that it led to in the Soviet Union, Korea, Venezuela etc. But when it's done right? It's really effective. Singapore 30 years ago, Malaysia 20 years ago, the UK's NHS 60 odd years ago: When a govt sits down and REALLY thinks about the future and focuses on a defined objective and then creates steps and laws needed to get to that objective, it can yield results.

Ireland's not good at that. They've done it in some areas of the economy (We want to get MNCs in. We want to get medical and aviation in) and it's gone well. But areas like farming, infrastructure, health, education etc etc have just been allowed to drift. The children's hospital is a perfect ongoing example of this.

And I get that this is a corporatist view. I just can't get around the fact that the EU pumps 1.5 billion into Irish farmers bank accounts without having a significant amount of input into what's grown.
I thought the subsidies were quite specific. We looked at the sustainable crop subsidies a few years ago. There were specific crops subsidised for climate change goals. Set aside is specific. I cant profess to know about all of them but any of the ones I have seen detail on over the years have been quite specific. You cant just own land and have cash shoved into your pockets, despite what people say around here.
 

Sync

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I thought the subsidies were quite specific. We looked at the sustainable crop subsidies a few years ago. There were specific crops subsidised for climate change goals. Set aside is specific. I cant profess to know about all of them but any of the ones I have seen detail on over the years have been quite specific. You cant just own land and have cash shoved into your pockets, despite what people say around here.
There's definitely specifics around what they grow, but that's never really changed except on a piecemeal basis, and that's what we're talking about now. Moving from doing X to Y. And that may have costs associated with it (Which shouldn't fall onto the farmer).
 


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