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Will non-EU immigrants integrate successfully into Ireland?


patslatt

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Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
In contacts with non-EU immigrants and students,I've learned that it takes a very long time-up to 10 years-in Ireland to obtain the right to become a permanent resident or get citizenship. By comparison,it takes about three years in Canada,while in the US a green card gives the right to permanent residence. An extortionate fee of €900 is required to apply for Irish citizenship,according to an applicant I met today.

Presumably,the government sees this as practical,in that it preserves jobs for the native Irish.But this is fallacious according to the "lump of labour" fallacy (Google it!).

More important,it discourages integration of non-EU immigrants into Irish society. There could be a high price to be paid for that in social tensions. Many non-EU minorities could logically conclude that since their residence is uncertain,they and their children should be wary of integration in case they are dumped back into the old country from whence they came.

A good example of this is the situation of the Turks in Germany who were regarded as disposable workers, "Gastarbeiters", who eventually would return to Turkey. Their integration into Germany has not been successful,judging by low educational attainments,high unemployment and high crime rates. By contrast,muslims who immigrated to the US and Canada have by and large integrated fully because they were made to feel welcome in the multicultural milieu.

In conclusion,I think the government and many Irish people need to give up the selfish gombeen attitude to non-EU immigrants and make them feel welcome by liberalising the citizenship laws. We Irish should be building a society of all the people who are here,not trying to exploit some short term advantage on employment for the Irish. How would the generations who emigrated from Ireland all over the English speaking world have felt if those countries made it difficult for the Irish to stay when their economies had recessions?
 
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Cael

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Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,343
Will Irish people integrate into the freakish nighmare our Fourth Reich masters are pushing us into? Thats the question Id like to know the answer to.
 

seabhcan

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Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
14,327
In contacts with non-EU immigrants and students,I've learned that it takes a very long time-up to 10 years-in Ireland to obtain the right to become a permanent resident or get citizenship. By comparison,it takes about three years in Canada,while in the US a green card gives the right to permanent residence. An extortionate fee of €900 is required to apply for Irish citizenship,according to an applicant I met today.

Presumably,the government sees this as practical,in that it preserves jobs for the native Irish.
Its a stupid system. My wife is puttng together her application at the moment. It currently weighs in at 4 kg of paper, including copies of every utility bill she ever got in Ireland. When she sends it in, we have heard that they always ask for more documents. When they get that, they don't contact you again for about 4 years, at which point they tell you whether you are now Irish or not. Then they charge you 900 quid (or whatever the fee will be by then).

They can reject your application for any reason, or for no reason.

If they accept it they immediately cancel your residency permit and visa (because you are now Irish) but they take another 3-6 months to actually issue your Irish passport and naturalisation certificate. This means that during these months, you can't leave the country, because although you are officially Irish, you have no proof.

The whole process takes about 5 years, meaning it takes 10 years from arrival in Ireland to obtaining your Irish passport, minimum.

Contrast with France, where you can't apply for 9 years (as opposed to 5 years here) but the 'processing' period for your application is only a few months (as opposed to 4-5 years processing here). Same result, but France is far less bureaucratic and efficient than Ireland, in this area at least.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Mar 20, 2005
Messages
7,991
Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
patslatt said:
More important,it discourages integration of non-EU immigrants into Irish society. There could be a high price to be paid for that in social tensions. Many non-EU minorities could logically conclude that since their residence is uncertain,they and their children should be wary of integration in case they are dumped back into the old country from whence they came.
Well my view is that the State only needs to encourage integration for long-term residents rather than short-term non-EEA migrants. I am strongly opposed to any measures that would liberalise the system of naturalisation because it would threaten Irish jobs.
seabhcan said:
Its a stupid system. My wife is puttng together her application at the moment. It currently weighs in at 4 kg of paper, including copies of every utility bill she ever got in Ireland. When she sends it in, we have heard that they always ask for more documents. When they get that, they don't contact you again for about 4 years, at which point they tell you whether you are now Irish or not. Then they charge you 900 quid (or whatever the fee will be by then).

They can reject your application for any reason, or for no reason.

If they accept it they immediately cancel your residency permit and visa (because you are now Irish) but they take another 3-6 months to actually issue your Irish passport and naturalisation certificate. This means that during these months, you can't leave the country, because although you are officially Irish, you have no proof.

The whole process takes about 5 years, meaning it takes 10 years from arrival in Ireland to obtaining your Irish passport, minimum.

Contrast with France, where you can't apply for 9 years (as opposed to 5 years here) but the 'processing' period for your application is only a few months (as opposed to 4-5 years processing here
If she's a First Worlder I would let her stay because she wouldn't constitute a potential economic-migrant. Otherwise the govt is right to be cautious. I understandard at least 48% of naturalisation-applications are rejected. We have to look after our own first.
 

F.U.B.A.R

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2010
Messages
411
In contacts with non-EU immigrants and students,I've learned that it takes a very long time-up to 10 years-in Ireland to obtain the right to become a permanent resident or get citizenship. By comparison,it takes about three years in Canada,while in the US a green card gives the right to permanent residence. An extortionate fee of €900 is required to apply for Irish citizenship,according to an applicant I met today.

Presumably,the government sees this as practical,in that it preserves jobs for the native Irish.But this is fallacious according to the "lump of labour" fallacy (Google it!).

More important,it discourages integration of non-EU immigrants into Irish society. There could be a high price to be paid for that in social tensions. Many non-EU minorities could logically conclude that since their residence is uncertain,they and their children should be wary of integration in case they are dumped back into the old country from whence they came.

A good example of this is the situation of the Turks in Germany who were regarded as disposable workers, "Gastarbeiters", who eventually would return to Turkey. Their integration into Germany has not been successful,judging by low educational attainments,high unemployment and high crime rates. By contrast,muslims who immigrated to the US and Canada have by and large integrated fully because they were made to feel welcome in the multicultural milieu.

In conclusion,I think the government and many Irish people need to give up the selfish gombeen attitude to non-EU immigrants and make them feel welcome by liberalising the citizenship laws. We Irish should be building a society of all the people who are here,not trying to exploit some short term advantage on employment for the Irish. How would the generations who emigrated from Ireland all over the English speaking world have felt if those countries made it difficult for the Irish to stay when their economies had recessions?
Please explain why so many non eu nationals are employed in this country driving taxies often with little or no english.
 

Chi019

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
750
A good example of this is the situation of the Turks in Germany who were regarded as disposable workers, "Gastarbeiters", who eventually would return to Turkey. Their integration into Germany has not been successful,judging by low educational attainments,high unemployment and high crime rates. By contrast,muslims who immigrated to the US and Canada have by and large integrated fully because they were made to feel welcome in the multicultural milieu.
No, this is simply evidence that more skilled and intelligent people will assimilate faster. The Muslim migrants to the US have tended to be far more educated than those who have entered Europe.

On the other hand, the average IQ of Turks in Germany is 85. This means they are likely to be overrepresented amongst high school drop outs and welfare dependency.

Also, there are major cultural issues that make strict citizenship criteria essential. Read this letter by a Danish prison psychologist:

Please study the Quran and see what that means: It is a criminal book that forces people to do criminal things (examples here)! From September 11th 2001 (do you remember...?) to July 28th 2010 there have been 15.373 confirmed cases of murder motivated by the Quran and the inhuman example of
the Muslim's prophet as described in his life story in the Hadiths
(The Religion of Peace). Do you really think we need to open our European borders to 77 mio. followers of such an ideology?

Turkish immigrants in Denmark have a crime index of 184 (meaning that their frequency of crime is almost double that of the average Danish citizen) (Kulturkløften.dk)

Do you really think we need more of that on our continent?

Did you know that "Three out of four women in all of Turkey is in average victim to physical or psychological violence at least one time per month." (IslamInfo.dk)?

Do you want such a view on women to take root in our societies?

And did you know that "70 percent of the Turkish citizens never read books, Konda public opinion researchers said, APA reports. The research centre conducted opinion poll among 6482 respondents and found out mood of national and religious discrimination, as well as isolation is still in a high level in the country.

According to research reports, despite that there are many Turks living in the European countries, 90 percent of Turkish citizens never travel to the foreign countries. 73 percent of respondents were against the purchasing of real estate by the foreigners. Most of them considered the neighbour countries as a threat for the territorial integrity of Turkey.

The researchers found interesting facts about the women’s role in the Turkish society. 70 percent of respondents think that the woman can work only by consent of her husband. 57 percent said considered appearance of women in the public places without headscarves as unacceptable.” (APA).

Do you think such a culture belongs in Europe or is even European?

"Public opinion in EU countries generally opposes Turkish membership, though with varying degrees of intensity. The Eurobarometer September-October 2006 survey [77] shows that 59% of EU-27 citizens are against Turkey joining the EU, while only about 28% are in favour." (Wikipedia).

Do you know what representative democracy means?

Turks in Denmark are more criminal than Somalis, Iranians and Iraqis (all war stricken countries with a high amount of traumatized refugees). This record is form Statistics Denmark and is correlated for economical and educational status. We Europeans are sick and tired of criminal foreigners being invited to our countries by the politicians that we - with our votes - trusted to take good care of our countries!

25-30 percent of marriages in Turkey are intermarriages
(Jyllands-Posten). This means that 25-30 percent of all Turks are the result of inbreeding. Surely you already know that inbreeding between cousins doubles the risk of mental and physical handicaps and that Western societies are struggling hard with the economic consequences of handicapped immigrants (BT).

Besides the 100 percent increase in physical handicaps, this also effects the intelligence of the offspring negatively - which surely our schools and institutions have noticed: "...studies in which the effects of inbreeding on cognitive performance have been examined revealed that offspring of first-cousin marriages had lower IQ scores than offspring of unrelated parents. ...offspring of unrelated parents performed better than offspring of first-cousin marriages in intelligence and achievement tests administered at grades 4 and 6. The lowest level of performance and a higher variance were found for offspring of double-cousin marriages. The inbreeding depression found in this study is consistent and cannot be explained by the effects of socioeconomic status." (Nature).

Do you think that this can partly explain why the Turkish population already living in Europe proved to be incapable of integrating to the necessary extent in our high tech knowledge societies?
• Open letter to PM David Cameron regarding Turkey | EuropeNews
 

asknoquestions

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
2,977
No, this is simply evidence that more skilled and intelligent people will assimilate faster. The Muslim migrants to the US have tended to be far more educated than those who have entered Europe.

On the other hand, the average IQ of Turks in Germany is 85. This means they are likely to be overrepresented amongst high school drop outs and welfare dependency.

Also, there are major cultural issues that make strict citizenship criteria essential. Read this letter by a Danish prison psychologist:

• Open letter to PM David Cameron regarding Turkey | EuropeNews
German policies are some way responsible for the poor attainment of the Turkish immigrants. They were brought in as "guest workers" to do the jobs the Germans no longer wanted to do and they were sort of expected to go away afterwards. There was no real effort made to integrate them. But now there are some third generation Turks living in Germany who don't have German citzenship and don't want it either.
 

bormotello

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
12,197
In contacts with non-EU immigrants and students,I've learned that it takes a very long time-up to 10 years-in Ireland to obtain the right to become a permanent resident or get citizenship.
It was true 4-5 years ago, but Lenihan, when he was minister of justice, somehow managed to improve dramatically things in naturalization section of INIS. AFAIK, in most cases naturalization process takes about 2 years, ie 7 years in total.
950 euro is not cheap, but sum will be paid only when application will be approved, not upfront.
I don’t think that reduction of this fee will improve integration non-EU into Irish society, especially when significant number of applicants are even not able to read one sentence of oath in court, because they cannot speak English at all.
 
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The only people who can answer this are the immigrants themselves.

We can only base a judgment when looking at the experiences of other countries around the world. In particular the UK.

Whilst im sure most will intergrate we obviously will always have those who dont want to, have a chip on their shoulder etc.
 

asknoquestions

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Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
2,977
The only people who can answer this are the immigrants themselves.

We can only base a judgment when looking at the experiences of other countries around the world. In particular the UK.

Whilst im sure most will intergrate we obviously will always have those who dont want to, have a chip on their shoulder etc.
Not sure the Uk is the best example seeing as the extremists who set off bombs e.g. on 7/7 were mostly immigrants whereas in Ireland it's native Irish who are still setting off bombs in Derry. I wouldn't like to see immigrants getting that integrated!
 

factual

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Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
8,761
In contacts with non-EU immigrants and students,I've learned that it takes a very long time-up to 10 years-in Ireland to obtain the right to become a permanent resident or get citizenship. By comparison,it takes about three years in Canada,while in the US a green card gives the right to permanent residence. An extortionate fee of €900 is required to apply for Irish citizenship,according to an applicant I met today.

Presumably,the government sees this as practical,in that it preserves jobs for the native Irish.But this is fallacious according to the "lump of labour" fallacy (Google it!).

More important,it discourages integration of non-EU immigrants into Irish society. There could be a high price to be paid for that in social tensions. Many non-EU minorities could logically conclude that since their residence is uncertain,they and their children should be wary of integration in case they are dumped back into the old country from whence they came.

A good example of this is the situation of the Turks in Germany who were regarded as disposable workers, "Gastarbeiters", who eventually would return to Turkey. Their integration into Germany has not been successful,judging by low educational attainments,high unemployment and high crime rates. By contrast,muslims who immigrated to the US and Canada have by and large integrated fully because they were made to feel welcome in the multicultural milieu.

In conclusion,I think the government and many Irish people need to give up the selfish gombeen attitude to non-EU immigrants and make them feel welcome by liberalising the citizenship laws. We Irish should be building a society of all the people who are here,not trying to exploit some short term advantage on employment for the Irish. How would the generations who emigrated from Ireland all over the English speaking world have felt if those countries made it difficult for the Irish to stay when their economies had recessions?
All people are entitled to full economic and cultural equality - Mary Lou.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
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Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
All people are entitled to full economic and cultural equality - Mary Lou.
In practice full equality for everyone is neither widely practiced, practical or desirable. Marxist slogans like "equality" would - if taken to their logical-conclusion - result in babies getting the right to vote, men getting maternity-leave, under-16s being allowed to marry, everyone getting free legal-aid etc. That is a ludicrous proposition. Imho, while noone should be persecuted for something that is inborn, we cannot afford to grant citizenship to everyone that walks off the boat or plane. Nor can we afford equal access for non-citizens to our social-welfare system because it would collapse. Nor can we afford to grant universal free education at the tax-payers' expense to the other 6.7 billion inhabitants of the earth. As such, I agree with the slogan that some inequality is necessary in our society. A person should not be discriminated against for something that is biological or inborn - but equal access to everything for the entire global population is simply not affordable or realistic.
 

RightCentreLeft

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Jul 22, 2010
Messages
928
Its a stupid system. My wife is puttng together her application at the moment. It currently weighs in at 4 kg of paper, including copies of every utility bill she ever got in Ireland. When she sends it in, we have heard that they always ask for more documents. When they get that, they don't contact you again for about 4 years, at which point they tell you whether you are now Irish or not. Then they charge you 900 quid (or whatever the fee will be by then).

They can reject your application for any reason, or for no reason.

If they accept it they immediately cancel your residency permit and visa (because you are now Irish) but they take another 3-6 months to actually issue your Irish passport and naturalisation certificate. This means that during these months, you can't leave the country, because although you are officially Irish, you have no proof.

The whole process takes about 5 years, meaning it takes 10 years from arrival in Ireland to obtaining your Irish passport, minimum.

Contrast with France, where you can't apply for 9 years (as opposed to 5 years here) but the 'processing' period for your application is only a few months (as opposed to 4-5 years processing here). Same result, but France is far less bureaucratic and efficient than Ireland, in this area at least.
All sounds very familiar.

My partner applied in Summer 2005 and is expecting her naturalisation certificate before christmas (even though the form and the €200 was sent in August). We must have sent about 20 letters to get to this stage - were she has been granted naturalisation. The last letter we sent threatened legal action and that seemed to speed things up. The main problem was that they constantly asked for new documents - some of the things they asked for were ridiculous.

She has lived in Ireland for 10 years ( since she was 12) and her father has held an Irish passport for over 5 years (he has been in Ireland 13 years). I feel that - because her father was granted naturalisation when she was a minor dependent - the process for her should have been a lot easier.
 

Catalpa

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Joined
Jun 10, 2004
Messages
10,301
Its a stupid system. My wife is puttng together her application at the moment. It currently weighs in at 4 kg of paper, including copies of every utility bill she ever got in Ireland. When she sends it in, we have heard that they always ask for more documents. When they get that, they don't contact you again for about 4 years, at which point they tell you whether you are now Irish or not. Then they charge you 900 quid (or whatever the fee will be by then).

They can reject your application for any reason, or for no reason.

If they accept it they immediately cancel your residency permit and visa (because you are now Irish) but they take another 3-6 months to actually issue your Irish passport and naturalisation certificate. This means that during these months, you can't leave the country, because although you are officially Irish, you have no proof.

The whole process takes about 5 years, meaning it takes 10 years from arrival in Ireland to obtaining your Irish passport, minimum.

Contrast with France, where you can't apply for 9 years (as opposed to 5 years here) but the 'processing' period for your application is only a few months (as opposed to 4-5 years processing here). Same result, but France is far less bureaucratic and efficient than Ireland, in this area at least.
Contrast with France, where you can't apply for 9 years (as opposed to 5 years here) but the 'processing' period for your application is only a few months (as opposed to 4-5 years processing here). Same result, but France is far less bureaucratic and efficient than Ireland, in this area at least

Sounds a much better system.

BTW 70% of the immigration we have experienced in the last decade or so comes from States who no longer require further permission from us to reside in our Country.

But even immigrants here now must realise that its insane letting more people into the State

- when we cannot provide enough jobs for the people who are here already!
 

Catalpa

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Joined
Jun 10, 2004
Messages
10,301
All sounds very familiar.

My partner applied in Summer 2005 and is expecting her naturalisation certificate before christmas (even though the form and the €200 was sent in August). We must have sent about 20 letters to get to this stage - were she has been granted naturalisation. The last letter we sent threatened legal action and that seemed to speed things up. The main problem was that they constantly asked for new documents - some of the things they asked for were ridiculous.

She has lived in Ireland for 10 years ( since she was 12) and her father has held an Irish passport for over 5 years (he has been in Ireland 13 years). I feel that - because her father was granted naturalisation when she was a minor dependent - the process for her should have been a lot easier.
What is the difference between Naturalisation & Citizenship

- or is there one?
 

patslatt

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Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
Google "Lump of labour fallacy" and educate yourself!

Well my view is that the State only needs to encourage integration for long-term residents rather than short-term non-EEA migrants. I am strongly opposed to any measures that would liberalise the system of naturalisation because it would threaten Irish jobs.If she's a First Worlder I would let her stay because she wouldn't constitute a potential economic-migrant. Otherwise the govt is right to be cautious. I understandard at least 48% of naturalisation-applications are rejected. We have to look after our own first.
 

kerdasi amaq

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Aug 24, 2009
Messages
4,685
All people are entitled to full economic and cultural equality - Mary Lou.
In their own countries and on their own national territories.:p
 

patslatt

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Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
My non-EU taxi drivers have good English but heavy accents

Please explain why so many non eu nationals are employed in this country driving taxies often with little or no english.
You are confusing heavy foreign accents with command of English. Most of the non-EU taxi drivers I meet are Nigerian,a country in which English is common among people who have some education. I usually ask them what occupation they held in the country of origin and typical answers are small trader ( about 5),accountant (2),primary school teacher (1),university student at home (most).
 

patslatt

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Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
Similar criticisms could be made of the Old Testament

No, this is simply evidence that more skilled and intelligent people will assimilate faster. The Muslim migrants to the US have tended to be far more educated than those who have entered Europe.

On the other hand, the average IQ of Turks in Germany is 85. This means they are likely to be overrepresented amongst high school drop outs and welfare dependency.

Also, there are major cultural issues that make strict citizenship criteria essential. Read this letter by a Danish prison psychologist:

• Open letter to PM David Cameron regarding Turkey | EuropeNews
Similar criticisms could be made of the Old Testament as the Koran,as Dawkins has pointed out.

As for arranged marriages,they are common in most third world societies in which the extended family and the tribe provide the protections for people that weak states can't provide.

Are many of the Turkish emigrants in the EU from the Kurdish population who have experienced frightful repression from the Turkish security forces? That could explain some of the social problems.

Generally,immigrants from non-EU countries integrate well when they come from cultures like Asia's that have a high respect for education. It is more difficult to assimilate the families of poorly educated workers than those with good basic education and skills. In Ireland,most of the non-EUs have good education and so most of them should have their applications for citizenship accepted.
 
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